Parallel compression

[Tony Ramone]

Originally Posted by Patyk1986

Well, Ive tried today to mix this without the limiter.Sadly, with no luck.Ive set the master fader to -10db, soloed the drums.They peaked at -10db.Then Ive brought up all the instruments.The overall mix peaked at around 0db.From that point Ive boosted the master fader to the point where it started to clip(around +6,12 db)so I backed off a bit.Then Ive put a comp(not aggresive) on the 2buss and there added some make up gain.But still the mix is way less powerful than the one with the limiter.What now ?

I think you're still approaching this in the wrong way - the overall mix should never go over 0dB. That's the point of digital clipping, not at +6 or however high you're managing to get it.
I think you could leave the master fader alone at 0dB, but have the drum faders set so that they peak at -10 or whatever, then add in your other instruments.

Sorry, this might not be very clear - I've deleted and rewritten every sentence several times: I've just come back home from a weekend of boozing (Cork Guinness Jazz weekend), so my brain is totally fried

[Patyk1986]

Originally Posted by Tony Ramone

I think you're still approaching this in the wrong way - the overall mix should never go over 0dB. That's the point of digital clipping, not at +6 or however high you're managing to get it.
I think you could leave the master fader alone at 0dB, but have the drum faders set so that they peak at -10 or whatever, then add in your other instruments.

Sorry, this might not be very clear - I've deleted and rewritten every sentence several times: I've just come back home from a weekend of boozing (Cork Guinness Jazz weekend), so my brain is totally fried

Hmm, so youre saying that I should leave the mix at 0db.So from that point what can I do to make it loud enough ? Because with the master volume fader at 0db it will be definitely too quiet.

[Tony Ramone]

Originally Posted by Patyk1986

Hmm, so youre saying that I should leave the mix at 0db.So from that point what can I do to make it loud enough ? Because with the master volume fader at 0db it will be definitely too quiet.

What makes you think it "definitely" won't be loud enough?
Can you post the mix you've got so far so we can try and help you with it?

[Patyk1986]

OK.
The first sample is the mix with the Limiter on.The master fader is at +6,5db with the limiter(agressive)on the master bus.
The second sample is a mix with the master volume set at 0db(just as you told me).As you can see, its barely audible.

[Danny Danzi]

Patyk, I can hear the frustration in your text! LOL!! Try this for me and see how it works...just as a test, ok? Before I go there...if you listen to the mixes you presented here in your last example, mix without limiter is much better because it's so much clearer and it not crushed. Your snare drum and other instruments in the limiter mix are totally squashed and nasty sounding...no offense man. I'd much rather turn up my speakers a bit on mix 2 opposed to listening to mix one as it is. Anyway...try this..

I think you are confusing fader levels and LED peak levels...so just forget about all that stuff and try what I'm telling you here and see how it works. Just for shits and giggles, ok?

First, bring all your faders in your project all the way down. Set the master buss fader to 0dB right in the middle. From there, start mixing in your instrumentation with actual fader levels starting at about -8dB. Now keep in mind, this is a fader level I want you to do, NOT an LED peak level. You do understand the difference right? Not trying to be a smart ass...I'm just trying to cover all the bases with you.

Each fader should have a level on the fader that tells you how loud it is in fader language. Again, we are NOT looking at LED peak read-out here...just the actual level on the fader itself. Mix all your instruments to where you like your mix and try to stay in between -8dB to about -5dB on each fader level.

Now you can take a look at your LED peak levels. Anything going into the red at this point tells us 2 things.

1. You recorded WAY too hot.

2. You will need to bring the entire mix down by the amount instruments are clipping.

If something is going into the red and you have it at -5dB on the fader level and the LED peak level is reading +1.2dB, I would drop the entire mix on each fader by -1.5dB without touching the master fader. Leave that at 0dB fade level in the center and don't worry about it just yet.

Though you most times have enough headroom to where you can allow a track to get into a clip range (as long as you don't hear it) I do not like to see channels clipping even if I don't hear them. It's just a pet peeve of mine. The rule of thumb in this field is to use your ears and not rely on meters unless you hear something...but to me, a red line is a red line.

Once you have your tracks to where they are not clipping the LED, this is when you watch your master bus fade LED peak. You want your entire mix to land at -3dB to -2dB with an entire pass. Try to keep the master buss fader as close to 0dB (fader reading not LED peak) as possible and make sure the LED peak is not exceeding -2dB.

Once you achieve that, you are right where you need to be. To make it louder, put your limiter on the master buss, set the noise shaping and dither to whatever you want, set the out-ceiling to -0.1, release from 1.0 to 10.0 depending on what you're looking for, and set the threshold as loud as you need it until you start to hear your snare drum lose it's crack. As soon as the mix sounds like a big ball of shit, you need to back down the threshold until it breathes and your snare is cracking like a shotgun blast instead of punching an emtpy box in a warehouse for acoustics. LOL! I'd say your target for this in the limiter threshold area would be between -6dB and no hotter than -6.8 if there are no vocals in the tune. Once vocals come into play, you'll end up with lower numbers on the limiter if you want to maintain dynamics.

So try this out and see how you fair. I'd be willing to bet this will work extremely well for you and you'll be happy with the volume. However, I would NEVER use this method myself because it to me is still not the proper way totally. I'd never put a limiter on my master buss in the mixing realm because there are other things that need careful consideration...but that's an entirely different discussion. For now I just want you to get good track levels and a good output.

Everything I have you doing here is exactly what I do every day other than the limiter in my master buss section. I handle that a completely different way. But since you are somewhat doing this method with the limiter in the buss, this is how I would approach it if I were you. Get back to me and let me know how it works or if you have any questions.

Remember, you have fader level...and LED peak level. Fader levels can go past 0dB if need be as long as you're not hearing artifacts or seeing massing LED clipping. Even then like I said, some people are cool with that as long as they don't get that horrible digital distortion clipping sound.

But you have to keep in mind....the more instruments you have pushing hot LED peaks, the more your master buss LED is going to clip and that's what you don't want. If you can set your master buss fader to 0dB or a bit hotter and the master buss LED peak is not past -2dB, you're fine. Just remember the differences between the fader level and the LED peak level. This is where I think your problem has been the entire time. Best of luck with everything.

[Patyk1986]

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Patyk, I can hear the frustration in your text! LOL!! Try this for me and see how it works...just as a test, ok? Before I go there...if you listen to the mixes you presented here in your last example, mix without limiter is much better because it's so much clearer and it not crushed. Your snare drum and other instruments in the limiter mix are totally squashed and nasty sounding...no offense man. I'd much rather turn up my speakers a bit on mix 2 opposed to listening to mix one as it is. Anyway...try this..

I think you are confusing fader levels and LED peak levels...so just forget about all that stuff and try what I'm telling you here and see how it works. Just for shits and giggles, ok?

First, bring all your faders in your project all the way down. Set the master buss fader to 0dB right in the middle. From there, start mixing in your instrumentation with actual fader levels starting at about -8dB. Now keep in mind, this is a fader level I want you to do, NOT an LED peak level. You do understand the difference right? Not trying to be a smart ass...I'm just trying to cover all the bases with you.

Each fader should have a level on the fader that tells you how loud it is in fader language. Again, we are NOT looking at LED peak read-out here...just the actual level on the fader itself. Mix all your instruments to where you like your mix and try to stay in between -8dB to about -5dB on each fader level.

Now you can take a look at your LED peak levels. Anything going into the red at this point tells us 2 things.

1. You recorded WAY too hot.

2. You will need to bring the entire mix down by the amount instruments are clipping.

If something is going into the red and you have it at -5dB on the fader level and the LED peak level is reading +1.2dB, I would drop the entire mix on each fader by -1.5dB without touching the master fader. Leave that at 0dB fade level in the center and don't worry about it just yet.

Though you most times have enough headroom to where you can allow a track to get into a clip range (as long as you don't hear it) I do not like to see channels clipping even if I don't hear them. It's just a pet peeve of mine. The rule of thumb in this field is to use your ears and not rely on meters unless you hear something...but to me, a red line is a red line.

Once you have your tracks to where they are not clipping the LED, this is when you watch your master bus fade LED peak. You want your entire mix to land at -3dB to -2dB with an entire pass. Try to keep the master buss fader as close to 0dB (fader reading not LED peak) as possible and make sure the LED peak is not exceeding -2dB.

Once you achieve that, you are right where you need to be. To make it louder, put your limiter on the master buss, set the noise shaping and dither to whatever you want, set the out-ceiling to -0.1, release from 1.0 to 10.0 depending on what you're looking for, and set the threshold as loud as you need it until you start to hear your snare drum lose it's crack. As soon as the mix sounds like a big ball of shit, you need to back down the threshold until it breathes and your snare is cracking like a shotgun blast instead of punching an emtpy box in a warehouse for acoustics. LOL! I'd say your target for this in the limiter threshold area would be between -6dB and no hotter than -6.8 if there are no vocals in the tune. Once vocals come into play, you'll end up with lower numbers on the limiter if you want to maintain dynamics.

So try this out and see how you fair. I'd be willing to bet this will work extremely well for you and you'll be happy with the volume. However, I would NEVER use this method myself because it to me is still not the proper way totally. I'd never put a limiter on my master buss in the mixing realm because there are other things that need careful consideration...but that's an entirely different discussion. For now I just want you to get good track levels and a good output.

Everything I have you doing here is exactly what I do every day other than the limiter in my master buss section. I handle that a completely different way. But since you are somewhat doing this method with the limiter in the buss, this is how I would approach it if I were you. Get back to me and let me know how it works or if you have any questions.

Remember, you have fader level...and LED peak level. Fader levels can go past 0dB if need be as long as you're not hearing artifacts or seeing massing LED clipping. Even then like I said, some people are cool with that as long as they don't get that horrible digital distortion clipping sound.

But you have to keep in mind....the more instruments you have pushing hot LED peaks, the more your master buss LED is going to clip and that's what you don't want. If you can set your master buss fader to 0dB or a bit hotter and the master buss LED peak is not past -2dB, you're fine. Just remember the differences between the fader level and the LED peak level. This is where I think your problem has been the entire time. Best of luck with everything.

Yeah, well I am frustrated a bit . Because I really try hard to improve all the time, but without that punch and loudness its gonna suck anyways.
Ive done everything according to your instructions.Sadly, still with no luck.
Maybe my hardware is faulty or sth? I use a Tone Port UX 2.Dont know :\ .Ive posted an mp3 file with the results.

[Danny Danzi]

Ok Patyk, now I'm lost. LOL!!! To me, the mix needs some work, but the volume here in my opinion is really good. I have a set spot for my volume that I rarely touch and had to back it down a bit while listening to this. At this point, I am the one that is completely clueless here man.

Punch doesn't come much from how something is mastered. The punch comes from within the mix. If your kick and snare are not punching through enough in the mix, mastering them will NOT alter how hard they hit or punch. If your guitars are not punching through, mastering the mix will not help this. I think your issues lie more within your mix itself instead of the final volume output of it. A good punchy mix on its own, will not need mastering to further enhance what is already great. Mastering it with a good eq curve, compression and a limiter will only keep it continuous and allow it to have a better over-all sound quality...which in turn will help it when it gets cranked up to a loud volume.

But, if a mix falls way short, it matters not how much punch you try to give it in the mastering stages...or what you put on your 2-buss. It's not going to change what is already there (or what may be lacking) all that drastically. It shouldn't have to. You either have a great mix before you start adding stuff, or you don't..honest, that's what the biggest part of this is all about. How you record, how you process, the sounds you choose...this is what makes the mix sound great first and foremost. When all the right elements are there, very little mastering actually needs to be done to a mix like that. When you can achieve that, you'll know you're going in the right direction. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

[Patyk1986]

OK, thanks guys for so much information.Well, Ive deleted that project and started a new, fresh one.Just one riff, drums, bass and thats it.I tweaked a lot, backed off the limiter(now its only on -0,5), just concentrated on listening to it.Ive added also some high pass filters on the master bus.And Im pleased with the effects.I dont know how will it work with a more complicated mix, but I see that Ive made progress.Now the drums are not squashed, and its possible to make the mix louder.I also read that there will be a plugin from Steven Slate, that will enable me to make everything even more loud or sth.So Im gonna check it out I gess when it comes out.
Anyway, Ive put an mp3 file, please listen and tell me what you think.

[willjrockstar]

Dude i dont undestand why yr so troubled by this loudness thing.

First and foremost get yr music to sound great and well balanced. Then you wont have to even think about it. THE BETTER THE INSTRUMENTS ARE RECORDED AND MIXED THE LOUDER YOULL BE ABLE TO GET YR MUSIC. That simple. Just because you put an L2 on yr master buss and hammer it doesnt mean its going to get louder.
If the bass and low end in the mix is too loud then yr volume will suffer. Everything will sound quieter because yr ears arent as sensitive to low end.
But massive amounts of low end suck up power.

Nobody cares how loud it is if the music sucks. If the music sucks im gonna turn it off. Seems your worried about all the wrong stuff.

[newkid]

Originally Posted by Patyk1986

Hmm, so youre saying that I should leave the mix at 0db.So from that point what can I do to make it loud enough ? Because with the master volume fader at 0db it will be definitely too quiet.

compress it
turn the knob on your power amp to the right for louder
you can make your ears bleed if the amp is big enough

what kind of db are we talking about??

dbFS should NEVER go over 0 and you try to guarantee that by keeping your workign ceiling at -18

dbm dbu dbv whatever you need to adjust to a common scale to compare levels