Recording A Big Drum Set: Opinions and/or Suggestions

[In10city]

Well I'm new to this forum and found it through a Google search on recording.? I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum but it's less about drums and more about recording so I figured I'd start here.

I am going to start recording drums for my band's 4th album in the next couple of months and want some fresh ideas.? One of my 'problems' is that I have a larger than average drum set and ended up with some phase problems on the last recording project and in the end I was not happy with the sound of my drums.?
Here's the typical setup I'm going to be recording:


I'm going to use an Audio Technica AE2500 inside the kick drum, I may also use a large diaphram speaker wired as a mic on the front head if I can't get enough out of the AE2500.? I'm going to use an SM-57 on the snare top side and another mic on the bottom side.? I was considering a condensor for the bottom but what about another SM-57 under??

I'm going to use 2 Audio Technica Pro 37's overhead.? Not sure if I should go X-Y Axis or just left and right overheads.?

I've got 4 AT Pro 35's as well for close in mic's on the individual toms but I'm not sure if I should even use them.? I've read so much about using less mics.? I want the deeper toms to come through with deep resonance but not too boomy so I was going to use a couple of AT-25s on the deepest two toms (14" and 16") but I have access to an AT 4033, SM-57 or SM 58 for that job.?

I'll be recording in our studio/rehearsal building with the main room being 30' x 30' with 10' ceilings.? I have some blankets hanging up in a semi-circle above the drums.? I'm going to move all the sound absorbing office dividers away from the drums and go for a more open sound with more room reverb.? Should I take the blankets down as well?? I'll be moving the drums into the center of the room away from the blankets so will they make a difference??

Should I consider adding a room mic for ambiance?? I have a really low budget Radio Shack PZM plate mic I could use or steal our AT 4033 vocal mic.? Any particular consideration as to where to position the room mic if I use it?

Let me sum up my questions to make it easier (I guess):

-Should I bother with a large diaphram "mic" infront of the kick drum head?
-What's the best choice for a bottom snare mic combined with an SM-57 top?
-Which (if any) of the toms should I close mic??
-How should I arrange the room treatments, do I go for minimal sound absorbsion or dampen everything??
-Which mic is best for room ambiance if any?
-If I do use a room mic, where should I position it?? ?

I am using a Mackie VLZ1604 (if we ever get it back from the new ribbon cable installation) as the pre-amp and sub-grouping everything into just 6 channels.? We are using the Ensoniq Paris computer based recording system so I only have 6 channels of simultaneous recording.? I was thinking:

1 - Kick
2 - Snare
3 - Left Overhead
4 - Right Overhead
5 - Toms
6 - Room ambiance

Thanks in advance for any suggestions/recommendations anyone can provide.?

[brandondrury]

You are asking some great questions, dude!! Let's get to work

#1 I hate your drum kit. If you brought that into my place, I'd say "Oh shit!". Then I would get stressed out because having that many round things makes getting the "big, resonant" sound without phasing real bitch!!!

I'm guessing you are doing the prog metal thing and it's totally common to use big drum kits for this type of music. Frankly, I don't have a clue how they record these big kits and still make them sound big and resonant (with close micing).

Basically, the bigger a drum kit gets, the less I look at it like a drum kit and the more I start looking at it like an orchestra piece. In other words, micing up every single tom would be a total disaster from a phasing standpoint without spending an enormous amount of time editing them. You do not have the tracks for this anyway, so that makes the decision to use less close tom micing easier.

The ONLY way recording a kit like this is going to sound anywhere close to not shitty is if you balance your kit EXTREMELY well. This requires a lot of skill / responsibility on your part and it all requires a room that will support this sort of sound.

In some rooms, an overhead mic will pick up a big thick tom sound even while it's picking up cymbals and such. In crappy rooms, the toms sound will be useless vomit shit in the overheads. I'm talking about the same mics, drum kit, and room. So choose your room wisely!

Your Room
It sounds like your room is pretty large. This is GREAT news! This doesn't mean it's perfect or even ideal, but based on dimensions along, it shouldn't be boxy sounding. (The worst thing a room can be, in my opinion).

Why do you insist on putting the drums in the center? Your room will have sweet spots. While I plan on making a video of this down the road, I'll try to explain it in text. Basically, grab a middle tom or floor tom and walk around the room. REALLY listen to how the tom sounds. Listen to the fullness of the low end. It will change. Make a note of it and walk around the room with the snare drum. See if the natural ambience of the room works with it in the same position. The center may be the best place, but don't decide that with your brain. Decide with your ears and studio monitors.

Ambience
I would not use a single blanket at first. I would find the sweet spot and really listen to the drums. You can get away with a little room sound in the drums. I love live sounding drums, personally. This is up to you, the band, and the style of music. Slowly add blankets as you see fit. Stop when you are happy.

Engineering
You didn't mention the style of music and this is EXTREMELY important for the engineering thing. Assuming we are going for the usual multimic'd drum sound, I'd try to keep everything super simple. I WOULD NOT sacrifice the overall fidelity of the kit just to get some big boom out of the toms. This big boom thing is HIGHLY over rated anyway.

I would take my time getting the core sound at first. For your big kit, I'd start with just kick, snare top, and overheads. Work very hard on just this and don't use any other mics for a long time. Really work on the placement of the overheads. These need to pick up everything. You may consider putting the floor tom side overhead about 2' out from the floor tome and maybe 1' above the flloor tom. Basically, I'm suggesting that you can control the amount of cymbals in your overheads by placing them closer to the stuff you want more of. So "sort of" mic your floor tom and see where that gets you. Remember, it's still picking up the entire kit, though.

I'd measure from the snare drum with a mic cable make sure the other overhead microphone is the same distance from the center of the snare top as the mic that we put close to your floor tom. You need to be careful because you annoying hihat is over on this side. Usually, with this mic I'll put it 6' or higher into the air and point it down at the snare drum. The mic may end up over the crash cymbals, it may end up coming from the drummer's left shoulder. Who knows! Experiment.

Using these two mics will help you get the resonance you want out of your toms, still get a nice picture of the overal kit in stereo and should keep the fidelity of the kit high.

I'd have no problem using a single kick drum mic in this situation. Don't complicate things with phase cancellation especially when you only have 6 tracks. If you had 20 tracks, I'd say to go ahead and put a mic inside and a mic outside. You don't. No BIG loss, really.

Room Mic
Next, I'd add the room mic. Spend a lot of time on the room mic. Really listen and try weird ideas. Try it 6 feet from the drum kit. Try it 20 feet from the kit. Try it in the corner of the room. Try it everywhere. Try it loud in the mix. Try it soft in the mix. Whatever. There is only one way you can really screw up a room mic (besides a crappy room and poor positioning) and that is picking up an excessive amount of high end. I'd rather be crucified than use an AT4033 for a room mic. The cymbals will tear your skull apart. I don't know what your other options are, but that would be the last mic I would choose. I'd go for something dark for the room mic.

Toms
These toms will not be robo huge and powerful, but if your playing, the room, and the mic position supports it, you will get tasteful toms with lots of tone. If you are used to close mics, you will not be super happy with the way the toms are "tucked" in the mix more than likely. They probably won't jump out unless you play that way. If you have a midi in, I'd highly recommend using triggers on the toms and triggering them with samples. If that isn't your bag or you can't swing it, I understand. There was a time when I let personal pride get in the way of the quality of my records, too.

With only one mic left, the options are slim. 6 channels is slim pickings for a kit like this. One option would be to listen to the room mic and see what it is adding. If it is adding something awesome, great! It HAS to stay. This depends entirely on your room. If it's not adding much, scrap it. I have a new idea. Go ahead and mic each tom and pan them. Do your submixing, but keep them in stereo. Toms don't cut through well when panned center. Spend a lot of time making sure the levels are the same on the toms. Don't look at meters. That's useless. Instead, use your ears. If a tom is quiet, it's quiet. Turn it up. You'll want to hit the damn toms VERY hard, more than likely.

I'd spend some time on the tom submix. I'd mute all the tracks and see what happens. You will get some bleed in there. Actually, you will have A LOT of bleed in there. Don't worry about that much from the recording side of things. The bleed is the fault of the drummer mostly. If you hit the toms robo hard, the bleed will be drastically reduced. If you play like a pussy, the toms will be useless. Serously. The ball is pretty much in your court to make this work. The best engineer in the world would probably tell you the same thing.

Snare Bottom
Hmmm. We are out of mics. I really like the snare bottom, too. I guess your shit out of luck on that one. In that case, make sure you get plenty of crack out of your snare top mic. If it sounds dull when solo'd then it will probably screw up this whole recording. I'd back the snare off a little more more than usual. The proximity effect on a 57 is a killer and we need the snare to crack a lot in this case. I have a feeling that if I mic'd this kit, we'd end up with a 57 about 3" from the snare. Who knows what angle and all that crap. I'd have to be there for that.

I hope this helps.

Brandon

[dach]

Brandon.... INCREDIBLE ADVICE ! If I got stuck doing that, i'd surely want to read your post before I shot myself or the drummer who hired the moving company to bring that kit in.... great job!


however, I might add that the OH placement and kik's are going to make or break the (drum) recording... and may vary on drum usage per song... I mean, i tried to play conga's on mine tonight and still only needed 7 pads.... 4 of which were unused and one was a bad mistake... (see other post)

I'd rent mics/pre's and make "several OH setups" that worked, and sort it out later... Room mics will be huge as well and plan to ride that fader... baby!.....

Since I don't know anything about your group I have to ask.... I've never heard you play either so please excuse me if I seem presumptious... I mean the Doobie's and Allman's needed 2 drummers and Bozzio & Peart have kits that are large... but I really have to ask this question... DO YOU REALLY NEED ALL THESE DRUMS AT ONE TIME?????

If I had to do it... and do it with style, first I'd hire someone who wanted to do it... in leiu of that... I'd get my room, oh's and kik mics happening... then snr... the I'd spot mic anything that sounded weak... then anything that needed extra treatment... I'd mic and use expansion or something so it would be possible to deal with....

I once tried a 1604 for extra pre's when I ran out... I sold it shortly thereafter....

Should I bother with a large diaphram "mic" infront of the kick drum head?
if you can get one that works well

-What's the best choice for a bottom snare mic combined with an SM-57 top?
57, 81 used to work well for everyone... there are so many these days it's hard to say...

-Which (if any) of the toms should I close mic?
whichever do not sound strong

-How should I arrange the room treatments, do I go for minimal sound absorbsion or dampen everything?
depends on the band and particular song...

-Which mic is best for room ambiance if any?
best and what works can be 2 different things... I usually use a 67 in front of kit and 67 for room unless I want stereo room...

-If I do use a room mic, where should I position it?

sorry, this is not what you want to hear... but. .. you might need to do some dry runs to find your best position.... I did not intend to sound like a jerk, I probably did... it;s late... but I think you can really accomplish what you need without the huge kit.... especially if you are recording it yourself.... the simpler the better....

[In10city]

Brandon, your advice and suggestions are deeply appreciated. Thanks so much for taking the time to give me some great detailed advice. I will print out your reply and put it all into practice. Seems like it's going to take me longer in pre-production than it will actually take to record the drum tracks. Like you guessed, I ran into major phase problems on the last recording and to complicate matters further, the hard drive crashed about halfway through the project and I had to start over.

Dach, I also appreciate your ideas and suggestions and don't take offense to anything said. I want to learn as much as possible BEFORE i start this next recording project and I'm gratefull for any and all input.

Yes, Farpoint is a progressive rock band and this next album will offer me the most opportunity to play in the progressive metal style that I'm a big fan of. And sadly, I do need all those drums to cover the parts I've written for the songs. I have a short attention span I guess but I like to hear different "voices" in my drum parts and I do use everything quite a bit. When I am recording a song, I'll play a quick run-through in my mind and take away anything that won't be played just to avoid any sympathetic rings or buzzes. I also use more individual stands to keep the drums from resonating each other. The small accessory snare will only be used with the set in 1 song, the rest of the time it will be put away. The chimes will be taken down and recorded seperately as required for each song. Only 4 of the songs will require the "full set" and I'll record those first. Once those are out of the way, I'll strip it down to just the necessary parts to complete the gentler songs.

I had considered triggering each tom for recording but I don't like the sampled tom sounds available to me in the Alesis DM5 I have so I'm going to go natural. I always use new heads for recording and spend a lot of time tuning them and feel pretty confident with my ability to tune drums so I'm no too concerned with getting good sounds. I have birch shells so they really cut through and project without as much bottom overtones.

I'd love my drums to sound like Neil's from the late 70's early 80's era of Rush so you might say that's the sound I'm striving for but I'd also like to have my own sound. I don't like a lot of effects on the drums, I like them to stay pretty clean so the listener can hear all the goofy little things I'm playing.

I'll clean everything up in the studio and then start with the snare like Brandon recommended and just walk around the room, looking for a sweet spot. I'll build from there.

Any other advise is more than welcome. It's great to finally find a forum where I can get some great advice and answers to my questions. Thanks!

[dach]

Thanks for taking it in the spirit that it was intended. Many of my posts here are not so much slams but attempts to get people to see the obvious. Intelligence and over thinking seems to get in the way of recording and music making sometimes. Planning does not. Best of luck here and let everyone know how you end up!

[In10city]

In spite of my experiance and a year in college as a RIM, I still consider myself an amature and know it's easier to learn if I keep my mouth shut and my ears open.

[brandondrury]

Intelligence and over thinking seems to get in the way of recording and music making sometimes.

This may explain why my recordings sound MIND BLOWING....wait.....nevermind.? They don't sound mind blowing.

I don't like a lot of effects on the drums, I like them to stay pretty clean so the listener can hear all the goofy little things I'm playing.

? Do you consider EQ and compression to be "effects".? Without them, you are probably screwed!? For me personally, I NEED eq and compression for mixing drums.? I need compression for vocals.? Everything else is just icing on the cake.


Brandon

[In10city]

Brandon, I have a printout from Mackie's page of our board surface with all the EQ settings and I make notes for each recording. I EQ EVERY mic input before they get submixed into the final recording. From there I may make minor bumps here and there but I try to get all the drums sounding "right" leaving room in the spectrum for drums to fit where they belong so to speak. I generally try not to boost any frequency as a rule. I try to find any frequencies that make each specific drum sound bad and cut them just a bit. Once I do away with individual drum mic'ing I'm sure it's all gonna change... Great. Like starting over in a way but if it sounds better it will be worth it.

I do use some compression, gate, and moderate levels of reverb on the kick and snare but try to keep it sounding as clean as possible. I usually submix the drums into left and right and then we build the rest of the song in another file which can be a pain in the ass becuase the drums sound different once everything is added and I typically have to re-mix the drums.

[brandondrury]

How much was this Paris system? I guess it's kind of old, because this is sort of the "old" way of doing things. I don't mean "old" way as in "cool" or "vintage" from 1970 type of thing. I mean "old" as in "really hard to work with".

I'm not sure of your situation, your band, etc but I couldn't imagine working with only 6 inputs on the drums and then bouncing drums down for overdubs. Personally, I'm glad I don't have to rely on Mackie EQ either. I just never felt like the Mackie EQs ever fixed the problems I was hearing no matter how I twisted them.

It's totally possible to get pretty good sound with your rig, but it sounds like its a lot harder than it should be. How do you track bass? Do you know crank up the kick drum really loud for that?

Brandon

[In10city]

Our methods are sort of based on trial and error but we generally record "scratch" tracks lined up with a click track and sometimes even a scratch drum track. (We use our recording system as much for composing the songs as we do for final recordings.) I'll record final version drum tracks and then we open a whole new file and the rest of the instruments are recorded along with the previously recorded drum tracks, one at a time.