Noise Gate... Or Feedback Destroyer for practice.

[tehguitarist]

Pretty much here is my dillemna (or however you spell the damn word) and i'll even make it easy for people to read! I am incredibly bored. I think this is the right place to put the thread


BACKGROUND INFO
My band is starting to gig, well actually that's irrelevant, even when we practice, we play loud... goddamn loud, in a ... well not small but room big enough to fit a 4 peice band comfortably with not HEAPS of room to go nuts in but anyway, due to this, we can't really crank the volume due to the feedback it creates, and if your not wearing ear plugs, that feedback is a sure way to start you on the road to tintinitis (constant ringing in your ears), that being said sit infront of a 120w tube amp on 5 will get pretty much the same results :P

THE PROBLEM
So my problem is this, i am on a budget, i COULD fork out the 400-500 odd to buy some really high quality feedback destroying gear... but i have another tube preamp, a ribbon mic, as well as a few other things to buy for my studio and i need to get something that will kill, if not stop it mostly, feedback because the room is small so i can reposition monitors and people heaps but it would be nice to have more freedom.

My limit is probably around 150 AU which in US is probably about 140 these days.

THE SELECTION
The 2 units i was looking at were the Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro DSP1124p, or the Behringer MDX2600 Composer or the Behringer Multigate Pro XR4400. Im a bit reluctant about the feedback destroyer cause of the frequency destruction etc... and the lack of a gate... you woulda thought that would be a no brainer. The composer is nice coz it has the compressor etc etc, and the multigate is nice coz well... we have lead vox and 2 backups, but its not that important if not all mics are gated.


I know the gear is behringer but its dirt cheap and it DOES work. If anyone has any other sugestions they'd be much appreciated. P.S when we practice i run all the mics through a tube compressor anyway.

[magno]

Save your money mate.
Those things all sound like glorified eqs for dummies to me.
Proper mic and speaker setup is where you should start, then think about acoustic treatment if you still have problems.

[tehguitarist]

Basically, this is JUST for practice, at the moment our singer stands 6 meters away from the band... because any closer regardless of the mic position it feedbacks the room is too small for it not to and it would cost a hell of a lot more putting in acoustic treatment.

[Electriclight]

If you already are using a compressor, why do you consider buying a compressor for feedback issues? The noise gate is only effective for hum and extra "quiet" noise while not playing. I don't think you can gate howling feedback. The feedback destroyer, on the other hand, is made to , uh, destroy feedback. That's probably what you are looking for.

I would ignore any highbrow anti-Behringer comments. Typically the knock on Behringer is that you may have to return an item that doesn't work out of the box. (Personally, I've never had problems with Behringer gear.) I've never heard that Behringer compressors don't compress, or EQ's don't EQ, or gates don't gate. (The other knock is that they "steal" (copy) circuitry form other companies.) Unless you own stock in the other companies, I say, good for us.

[tehguitarist]

I could be wrong in saying this, but wouldn't a gate get rid of feedback just because isnt feedback where the microphone is picking up the sounds from the speakers and creating a loop, wouldn't the gate stop the microphone picking up sound from the speakers?

So its down to the 2 channel feedback buster or the 4 channel gate.

Mind we have 3 singers, but for practice we can double up fine

[brandondrury]

Im a bit reluctant about the feedback destroyer cause of the frequency destruction etc

Unfortunately, do to the laws of physics, these feedback destroyer type products specialize in "frequency destruction". When a real badass tunes a PA, he's also taking part in this destruction, but the "badass" part of him/her makes it sound good. It's hard to say what a box in auto-pilot will do.

Save your money mate.
Those things all sound like glorified eqs for dummies to me.
Proper mic and speaker setup is where you should start, then think about acoustic treatment if you still have problems.

This is certainly the right way in the long run. Most people I know who bought feedback reducing products end up with a feedback reducing product on their junk shelf. Learning the fundamentals of ringing out a PA is priceless. I've got the opportunity to watch REAL pro dudes in this arena and it's a show worth paying for (for entertainment purposes even...I'm serious!)

If you already are using a compressor, why do you consider buying a compressor for feedback issues?

A compress will NEVER reduce feedback. Unless you have the PA tuned so well that the vocal peaks are too loud (when does this EVER happen?) a compressor isn't going to help. You can use compressors in the live setting, but the rule is to not use any makeup gain. Every dB of makeup gain needed is a dB of gain before feedback you have lost. This is ENTIRELY different than the way you would approach compressors in the studio where it isn't rare for me to use 20dB of makeup gain while tracking vocals.

it would cost a hell of a lot more putting in acoustic treatment.

Call U-Haul and ask them if they are throwing any blankets away. That could solve the problem for free.

I could be wrong in saying this, but wouldn't a gate get rid of feedback just because isnt feedback where the microphone is picking up the sounds from the speakers and creating a loop, wouldn't the gate stop the microphone picking up sound from the speakers?

Great question. The answer is yes and no. A gate cuts off the audio signal (or at least reduces it). So if the audio signal is being cut and no signal is coming out of the speakers, feedback will be zero. Of course, this isn't much different than saying you can reduce feedback by pulling the speaker cables out of the back of the speakers.

With a gate we have two situations. We have the gate opened and we have the gate closed. When the signal crosses the threshold of the gate, the gate lets all audio through. In this period of time, it's like there is no gate at all. You probably could get a few more dB out of a PA by cranking it up louder than the room will allow without and then rely on the gate to snip off the feedback before it really kicks in.

I would highly recommend getting A) acoustic treatment B) make sure you are using the proper null pattern with the microphone C) Get an Audix OM5 (highest gain before feedback of any mic I know of) D) a mega, mega cheap used 15-20 band mono EQ where you can notch out the feedback causing areas.

"D" is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY powerful in the right hands. In the wrong hands, it sucks. In other words, it takes some skill to get this figured out. If it were me, I can get a PA decently screaming because I've been taught and done this enough times to do a "decent" job (certainly not good). If you don't have experiencing in identifying feedback issues by ear, I would buy a case of beer for a local soundguy who knows his stuff to come help you. Make sure you've got the EQ I'm talking about and make sure you've already covered the room in blankets first.

Brandon

[Electriclight]

because any closer regardless of the mic position it feedbacks the room is too small for it not to

Well, I have to defer to the experts because I don't know alot about live sound setup...but I feel your pain. This reminds me of vegetable gardening advice - "rotate your crops". It's a nice thought but hard to do if you only have a 6' x 6' plot.

[tehguitarist]

I might give that ago, i'm thinking of getting the gate anyway just for practice sake and its so goddamn cheap!
The EQ idea is definately something ill look into aswell seeming as over here in australia, the studio scene is shrinking, and the live scene is growing, good talent to have ringing out a PA

[magno]

Hopefully no one thought I was Behringer bashing.
I actually like Behringer products and I own a few of them.
I even have a Behringer mixer that has FBQ built in to it.
It is pretty cool, works although I really don't use it.

[MetalDave]

The only time I ever used a feedback destroyer was live. Are you actually running a PA system while you are trying to record? The feedback destroyer I used got taken back to the music store and traded for a better X-over we had a soundtech crossover and found it was most of the problem. After switching to an ashley x-over 99% of the feedback problem was eliminated. I found when the feedback destroyer worked it made the sound even worse than what I had before! I have set sound for too many bands to remember in too many rooms to remember. I have had every feedback problem imaginable. It is the nature of the beast running live sound. I have never had a feedback issue to speak of in the studio.