Newbie struggling to get a working setup...???

[angelleye]

I simply want to be able to record my acoustic electric guitar and my voice at the same time on separate tracks. I purchased an Audigy Pro 4 sound card that is suppose to do just that for me.

I've got it installed and the Mic input, which from what I've learned is amped, records my vocals great with a crisp and clear sound and the volume plays back great. I can also plug my guitar directly into this Mic input and I'll get a perfectly crystal clear guitar recording with the same good volume, etc.

If I plug the guitar directly into the Line2 input on the Creative box it does record the guitar, however, it's so soft that I have to turn the computer volume up to 100% to hear the playback. Of course then any other sound the computer makes is EXTREMELY LOUD!

I was told by a friend who says he's got this all setup that I need an amp or pedal which will amp the guitar prior to reaching the Creative box. Then I'll get a good recording back from Line2 input.

I have a little Marshall amp that has a port that says CD IN & EMULATED LINE OUT. That's the only thing that says anything at all about Line Out. When I plug a cable from this port on the Marshall to the Line2 input on the Creative box I get an immediate nasty hum. This hum does not change no matter what I do with any of the volume or gain controls on the Marshall or on the Creative box. I tried to go ahead and record Line2 input with my guitar to see if it would at least work, but all I got was the hum playing back, and I still had to turn up the volume really loud to hear that.

Any information I can get on how to make this stuff work would be greatly appreciated. It doesn't seem like it's suppose to be this hard. I'm very eager to play with it, though, if I can ever get it working.

Thanks!

[brandondrury]

I purchased an Audigy Pro 4 sound card that is suppose to do just that for me.

Oh boy. So far, I have not encountered an Audigy card that I didn't consider to be useless. Maybe you'll be an exception.

If I plug the guitar directly into the Line2 input on the Creative box it does record the guitar, however, it's so soft that I have to turn the computer volume up to 100% to hear the playback. Of course then any other sound the computer makes is EXTREMELY LOUD!

The mic input has a preamp in there somewhere. The line input does not have a preamp. Read the definition of preamp and that will help you understand.

I have a little Marshall amp that has a port that says CD IN & EMULATED LINE OUT. That's the only thing that says anything at all about Line Out. When I plug a cable from this port on the Marshall to the Line2 input on the Creative box I get an immediate nasty hum. This hum does not change no matter what I do with any of the volume or gain controls on the Marshall or on the Creative box. I tried to go ahead and record Line2 input with my guitar to see if it would at least work, but all I got was the hum playing back, and I still had to turn up the volume really loud to hear that.

While I hate the sound of direct guitars, this should work for you. What cables are you using? I've got a feeling that an 1/8" adapter is involved.

Brandon

[angelleye]

I'm not sure what you mean by direct guitars..?? I am not using any adapters with the guitar cables. I simply have a 1/4" cable plugged from guitar to the Input on the Marshall Amp and then another 1/4" cable from the CD IN & EMULATED LINE OUT to the Line2 input on the creative box. Immediately upon plugging the cable into the Creative box I get that nasty hum. Also, I get nothing but the hum when I try and record with this configuration.

[brandondrury]

I'm not sure what you mean by direct guitars..??

http://www.recordingreview.com/music...2006/06/02/di/

Basically, DI (direct injection) means that no microphone is used to record a guitar.

This is a popular way of recording for people on micro budgets, but it usually sounds beyond awful.

Immediately upon plugging the cable into the Creative box I get that nasty hum.

I've got a feeling that your amp is causing this. There are a couple of possiblities, but I'd blame the outlet you've plugged the amp into first. You should try putting the amp on the same outlet as the computer. If that doesn't work, try other outlets.

If the amp has a ground lift on the back, try using it.

It's possible the output of your Marshall is having problems. It could be a the cable connecting the Marshall to your soundcard. I'd arrange that cable to so that it isn't contacting any power chords as that can introduce noise.

Brandon

[Smidgelton]

By direct guitars, he means plugging your guitar directly into a recording device rather than through a mic'd amp.

1. You want to record your vocals and guitar simultaneously but put them on two seperate tracks?

2. You're trying to plug your guitar into this amp and then the amp into your soundcard?

First, I don't recommend trying to record simultaneously on two seperate tracks. The guitar track is going to bleed into the vocal track and then editing the vocal track is going to be a mess.

-If you want to record simultaneously, maybe the best thing would be to set up two mics, one well placed mic on your guitar and one for your vox. But if your Audigy only has one mic input, this isn't do-able.

Recording the tracks seperately

-If you like sound of your guitar through the mic input, which probably does sound good, record through it! An acoustic guitar will still sound crisp and full plugged into a soundcard. An electric guitar will not.

-If the sound through your Marshall is better, it doesn't make much sense trying to run the amp into your soundcard. Just mic the amp.

-Another option would to be to buy a direct input box for acoustic guitars. Plug it into your line2. Check this one out http://www.zzounds.com/item--TCHPMDI

I definitely think you're going to like the results more if you record the guitar first and then go back and do your vocal track.

[brandondrury]

-If you like sound of your guitar through the mic input, which probably does sound good, record through it! An acoustic guitar will still sound crisp and full plugged into a soundcard. An electric guitar will not.

Well, I think DI'd acoustic guitars really suck too (there are handful of exceptions on the super high end Taylors that sound...less crappy). But direct electric guitars do sound worse than direct acoustic guitars.

Brandon

[angelleye]

Ok, now you guys have gotten me thinking I just need to do this the "right" way. I'll tell you how I got here.

I had an Audigy 2 ZS card that worked great, but of course it's basic and had a single Mic input. When I first started playing with recording myself/guitar I simply did it in front of my computer mic.

These recordings are ok for playing around, but there's always a slight hiss in the recordings. I can't seem to get my room quiet enough or something.

So I just thought to myself, if only I could plug my guitar directly into the computer so that it would record ONLY that signal and not all this extra stuff that'd be sweet. Well that's when I jumped on the web and since I had the Audigy 2 ZS that I liked a lot I checked out the other Creative products.

I immediately found the Audigy 4 Pro with the guitar input, etc. and though that's it! But now I'm stuck on the problems that got me to post this thread.

It looks like that pre-amp pedal would do the trick for me. But if there is a better way to go about all this, I'd rather do that. I can't get TOO crazy with price, but I'm not exactly strapped for cash either.

Another little problem I have is that I actually tend to sing better while I play my guitar than I do when I try and sing back over something I've played. I probably just need to practice more, but being able to record both tracks at the same time would be helpful to me.

I was thinking I could get directional mics or something so that the vocal mic wouldn't pic up the sound from the acoustic guitar..?? I was told I could probably do that. Is that wishful thinking?

I'd appreciate any advice I can get. Should I just start over with new hardware? Line 6 seems to have some products that might do what I want..?? Any feedback on their products?

Thanks!

[brandondrury]

These recordings are ok for playing around, but there's always a slight hiss in the recordings. I can't seem to get my room quiet enough or something.

So I just thought to myself, if only I could plug my guitar directly into the computer so that it would record ONLY that signal and not all this extra stuff that'd be sweet. Well that's when I jumped on the web and since I had the Audigy 2 ZS that I liked a lot I checked out the other Creative products.

Generally speaking, I don't give a damn about hiss. Of course, it's something that I induce on purpose. This hiss could be coming from your computer's fans, crappy mics, crappy cables, or noisy preamps (most likely).

Personally, I'd rather have a great sounding guitar and a little hiss than going direct, but that's a matter of a personal taste. It would certainly depend on the hiss level.

I'd improve the source. If noise is a problem, figure out why and solve (or at least reduce) the problem.

I immediately found the Audigy 4 Pro with the guitar input, etc. and though that's it! But now I'm stuck on the problems that got me to post this thread.

Personally, I never saw much of a point to this Audigy crap. They have pretty boxes and say stuff like "High Definition" on the box. Seldom to they put any importance on things that recording people really need like low latency, the ability to control buffer size and therefore latency, monitoring, etc.

If I were you, I'd take a look at some of the M-Audio or equivalent cards and see what is out there. Basically, the Audigy stuff is still consumer grade. I'd highly recommend you check out the sound cards you can't get at Best Buy, but you find in a real deal music store. Use my sound card Wizard in my signature to find the right sound card for you. I'm guessing you don't have to spend any more than the price of the Audigy to get exactly what you need.

It looks like that pre-amp pedal would do the trick for me.

Are you referring to the DI? You may also look into something along the lines of the M-Audio Audio Buddy. A DI is a good option but has no flexibility as far as using mics and stuff. Of course, I'm not sure if the Audio Buddy, in particular, has 1/4" inputs. Take a look and let me know.

Another little problem I have is that I actually tend to sing better while I play my guitar than I do when I try and sing back over something I've played. I probably just need to practice more, but being able to record both tracks at the same time would be helpful to me.

There a couple possibilities here:
#1 - You think you sing better with a guitar in your hand, but you really don't. This is like what every single in the world says "I sound great live, but I have trouble in the studio'...No, you can actually hear yourself now. When you can't hear what the hell you are singing, of course you are not going to hear the bad (or good).

#2 - Emotionally, you may really express yourself better with a guitar in hand. To be honest, this is rare. It takes a very skilled guitar player and singer to be really good at this to a level which sounds acceptable for recording.

#3 - Your headphone mix may be part of the problem.

#4 - If your guitar playing is all over the place, you can sing to it real time, but you won't be able to overdub to it. I'd try usinga click if you are going to overdub.

I was thinking I could get directional mics or something so that the vocal mic wouldn't pic up the sound from the acoustic guitar..?? I was told I could probably do that. Is that wishful thinking?

Well, yes and no. In the end, it's up to you to balance the sound of your voice and guitar. If you just mindlessly go for it, you are going to have problems. A real musician / performer is aware of his balance between vocals and guitar and would naturally compensate. I've recorded some people who just didn't understand this.

There are cardiod, supercardiod, and hypercardiod mics that will definitely pick up less guitar bleed than other mics. However, the guitar will still be in there. Sometimes, a mic can have a terrible off axis response. In this case, you are better off with good sounding loud bleed than quieter, crappy sounding bleed. This depends on you as a musician though.

When I record a singer playing guitar, I give up on the seperate idea. Just like a drum kit is not kick, snare, and toms but an overall kit...the same is true with the vocalist / guitar player. They are essentially one instrument.

There is little need, in my opinion, to seperate them especially to fix problems in relatively levels (this will get you nowhere in a hurry). You can't fix problems with levels with this setup, but you can enhance the tone of each instrument.

So, I would put a mic on the vocalist so that the vocals sound appropriate for the song. Maybe the mic is 1/2" away from the singer's moutn...maybe it is 2'. From there, I have to decide on the acoustic guitar. There will definitely be some acoustic guitar in the vocal mic.

So, I have to make sure that any other mics I use are in phase with vocal mic.

One trick I've had good luck with is putting one mic very close to the singer's mouth and then putting two more mics that are spaced pretty far apart (maybe 4-6 feet) on each side of the guitar player that are designed to snag mostly acoustic guitar. Of course, this depends on the room and a million other factors.

Sometimes a mic close on the vocal and a mic close to the acoustic guitar is perfect.

Brandon

[angelleye]

I can't tell from the specs. If I got the M-Audio Delta-66 (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta66-main.html) would I still need the pre-amp or is the Delta-66 already pre-amped?

Actually, nevermind that. I'm just gonna get the Audio Buddy and play around with my current stuff. If my guitar would simply record at the same level in Line2 as it does in the Mic input on my Creative box I'd be plenty happy enough to start playing with it, so I think that'll do it.

Thanks for all the info! I'll come back and post some samples once I get things setup.

[brandondrury]

Actually, nevermind that. I'm just gonna get the Audio Buddy and play around with my current stuff. If my guitar would simply record at the same level in Line2 as it does in the Mic input on my Creative box I'd be plenty happy enough to start playing with it, so I think that'll do it.

That sounds like a great plan. Go with it.

The only problem that may arise is with latency. If you don't notice it, there is no problem.

Brandon