new Cubase 4 user

[goetzpd]

Hello all. This is my first post. I am running Cubase 4 on a G4 laptop at 1.67Ghz, 2GB RAM with a MOTU828MKII. I need some advice on mastering my first recording. I had two AT830 cardiod condensor mics on a choir accompanied by a pipe organ. These mics were in the middle iof the church pointed towards the chour and pipe organ in a stereo config. They went through a Presonus MP-20 preamp to their own tracks. A 80hz roll off was on these. I had a Blue Baby Bottle 15 feet out from the 28 person choir run through the font XLR (built in preamp) on the MOTU. I had no roll off on this mic. These are the only 3 tracks I recorded. I have the AT tracks panned. One left, one right. The Baby Bottle is centered. What should I do to mix and master:
1. Normalize all tracks to -1db fade in and fade out on each song.
2. EQ, normalize, fade in and out each song.
3. Compress, EQ, normalize, fade in and fade out
4 . Adjust levels so audio rises to no higher than 0db, fade in fade out

I don't want to do a lot of processing because I don't know what I am adjusting but I do want the mix to be loud, like any CD you pick up off the shelf at a store. Suggestions?

philip goetz

[richiebee]

What is the genre of the content? Choir/organ makes me think its probably classical/hymns... that kind of thing. If this is the case, all tracks should not be normalized. Just the whole selection should be - in other words, make all the tracks into one long one, then normalize that. This will retain the correct relationship between all tracks.
Since you recorded one mic fairly close and two distant, I'd avoid compression. The natural reverberation that will be part of the distant mics will really make compression noticable if used on a mix. You might be able to use a little compression on the centre mic.
I don't think you'll get a loud sounding mix... just from t he way you set the mics up. Just make sure you have adequate sound level from the centre mic. You'll lose some of the stereo image, but the sound will be more direct.

I'd definitely recommend using more mics if you get to do this kind of thing again. One mic on the choir is really not enough.

What you do may differ if this is not classical style.

R.

[goetzpd]

Thanks for your reply Richie. The music is hymns. I can make all the tracks into one long one and then normalize. I am planning on normalizing to -1 db. Would I apply a little compression to the center mic before or after normalizing?

philip goetz

[richiebee]

You normalize your mix. It should be the last thing you do. It's part of mastering. So you might apply a little compression to the centre channel, mix with the othre two channels, then when you have your stereo mix, you can normalize it.
Certainly in this genre, you should go really easy on the compression. If its enough to notice, you've gone too far. If it is obvious because of the reverb from the room, take the compression off. It's better to have a mix that's a little bit too quiet than be able to hear that a channel has been compressed. This doesn't apply to pop, but it does to most classical stuff.

R.

[brandondrury]

There is a lot of talk of normalizing on this thread. I've been doing this whole recording thing for 6 years now and I have never used the normalize feature in any recording program that I can recall. A compressor and a limiter on the 2 bus seams to make the notion of normalizing obsolete.

The problem is further complicated when you get into RMS vs Peak normalization. Peak normalization simply calculates the amount of gain needed to make the loudest peak 0.0 or -0.1db (or whatever you decide). A human being could do this with ease as well (especially if a limiter like an L2 is used to catch any peaks that may be barely crossing the 0.0db mark.).

I don't know what I am adjusting but I do want the mix to be loud

"Loud" on a cd (where we have set limits to level) is nothing more than a condition of reduced dynamics. If you want more loudness, you just need to reduce dynamics.

Richiebee is right. Pop/Rock music you can get away with enormous amounts of compression. Classical tends to use dramatically less compression (so I hear...I'm not a classical guy).

I'd shy away from using normalization. If I wanted a loud sounding choir / hymm / organ thingy, I'd arrange the music to be that way (if possible). Two, I'd use compression, but I'd do it with multiple compressors set at low ratios. You can get a lot more transparent compression by using several coats of light compression than you will with one heavy compressor. It's up to you to decide.

After I've compressed as much as I think I can get away with, I'd use volume automation. You have to be very careful to make it sound natural. I'd lower the loud sections quite a bit.

High frequencies sound louder than low frequencies when played at the same level. Sometimes a high shelf boost or a low cut is the fastest way to get more apparent level.

On top of that, I'd render the file down (or just check my meters). It's possible that you may have a few transients that stick through that are costing you several dB. You can either use quick volume automation or just hit those little peaks with a limiter. This trick is great way to get more dB, without artifacts, in a way that a peak normalizer will not.


Brandon

[bubba]

Hi fellas:

A few months ago, I stumbled onto this plugin. Its DX, and Cubase after 2.0 no longer supports DX, but if you use an audio editor like Wavelab to make a master, it can be used there. It is absolutely amazing! It will raise your overall level/volume without clipping or artifacts. I have used it conservatively, but it does as advertised. It is a very well kept secret in the business. It was developed by a guy that does medical software. It's called Peak Slammer. Trial version available at link below......

http://www.scrollworks.com/products/slammer/


Peace: bubba

[brandondrury]

It is a very well kept secret in the business.

How is this different the waves L1, L2, or L3 which are about as well known as possible?

It's a limiter. (Maybe a good one...maybe not)...but this is not Cold War spy technology.

Brandon

[richiebee]

Your advice in this instance is so very wrong Brandon. In engineering, you can't simply apply one technique to everything. It simply doesn't work like that. Different musical styles require different approaches.

R.

[bubba]

Hi Brandon:
The Peak Slammer is different from the Waves and everyone else's limiters. This just might be "Red October" technology. I have put it in the signal path before and after L2, raised the level 3 or 4db, and no red lights come on and I hear no distortion or clipping. It just gets louder. You must try it to believe it. I learned about it from one of the trade magazines (an article - not an ad); I can't remember which rag.

Peace: bubba

[brandondrury]

Your advice in this instance is so very wrong Brandon.
R.

What did I say that was "wrong" specifically? I never once said that "this is how you are SUPPOSED to do it". I said how I would do it. After re-reading my post, I see nothing wrong with it.

He wants to get loud. I explained how I would go about doing it. Of course, I also said that transparency was a big deal. So assuming I was trying to maximize volume in this situation, I think the advice I gave was dead on.

It may turn out that I can only knock a dB or two using compression. There may not be one single peak like often appears in rock drums that can be reduced with an L2.

The ear is more senstive to high end energy than low end energy and if the material calls for it, going brighter will make the tune appear louder. (A lot of people who have issues with level in any kind of music haven't properly dealt with the mud in their tracks).

Volume automation is a tricky one, but he should be able to get at least a dB extra out of the deal...maybe more...maybe less.

Besides the subtle use of EQ, compression, limiting, and volume automation I can think of no other way to boost level. I know one thing. The 100% purist concept of doing NOTHING to the tracks is NOT how they are doing it on the movies. If you are telling me that there is no compression or EQ on the Pirates of the Carribean score, I'd call you crazy.

What is the dynamic range of a typical orchestra or choir? It has to be astounding. While "classical" type music is known for leaving in dynamics, there is no way they are doing NOTHING in most cases. (Probably some).

Anyway, are you flat out calling my methods for gaining level wrong or are you saying that I'm flat out wrong for even attempting this sort of thing on non-pop recording?

I'm interested where this is going because at the moment, I can't possibly see how I'm wrong regardless of the musical genre.

In engineering, you can't simply apply one technique to everything. It simply doesn't work like that. Different musical styles require different approaches.

I don't need this explained to me. The difference between recording folk music and recording death metal is astounding. I've done both. I consider the advice I gave to be solid for any genre.

So what would you do if the client says that a choir / organ has to be as loud as X music and if it's not he's telling everyone you are a baby raper?

Brandon