Mic Pre-Amp Questions.

[1 M.I.C]

Well lemme explain my deal and then hit u wit tha question..... well actually my friends deal and my question..

My friend is unhappy with his sound quality of his vocals. he is a rap artist, he uses cubase 5XL, and records with a RODE-NT1A connected to aAudio MobilePre USB Portable Audio Interface

he is only going to be recrording with 1 microphone, and his idea is to get a soundcard M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI Digital Audio Card and then get a good pre-amp.

so my question is about the pre-amp. i see for about 200 he can get ..
PreSonus-BlueTube-DP-Stereo-Microphone-Preamp

or for about 500 he can get a recording channel, which looks to be just 2 pre-amps.. but in a differently designed box..
PreSonus-Eureka-Pro-Recording-Channel

so if anyone knows any real differnces in them, and if one looks to be better suited for this situation... id appreciate it if you let me know.

[richiebee]

Originally Posted by 1 M.I.C

he uses cubase 5XL,

Do what now? I don't think that particular version of Cubase ever existed. Cubase 5 did... Cubase SX, SL and SE did... but not Cubase 5XL.

so my question is about the pre-amp. i see for about 200 he can get ..
PreSonus-BlueTube-DP-Stereo-Microphone-Preamp

or for about 500 he can get a recording channel, which looks to be just 2 pre-amps.. but in a differently designed box..
PreSonus-Eureka-Pro-Recording-Channel

so if anyone knows any real differnces in them, and if one looks to be better suited for this situation... id appreciate it if you let me know.

The pre-amp probably isn't the problem. If he can't get a good sound with a cheap pre-amp, a channel strip is going to fuck him right up. Once its recorded, there's no going back, which is the problem with recording with a channel strip. It's great if you know what you're doing, but not if you don't. You should be able to get good results with a Rode NT1 regardless of what pre-amp he uses. I'm not saying they're all the same - of course they're not. But the difference between them is small.

What exactly doesn't he like about his vocals? That's the first thing to define. Then go about finding out how to do something with it.

[1 M.I.C]

well since hes not sure exactly what he doesnt like about them..

ill ask u this..

"Once its recorded, there's no going back, which is the problem with recording with a channel strip."

why is that? what do u mean theres no going back?

[richiebee]

A channel strip generally has EQ and possibly a compressor. Maybe a gate, maybe other things too. If you try to fix up things as you're tracking and you record using a compressor or a gate, and to a lesser extend EQ, if you screw up the settings, you can't take them back. If you record a clean signal, with no EQ, no compression, no gate, no reverb, then whatever you decide to try is non-destructive. It won't hurt your original recording. You can get creative, learn what works and what doesn't without destroying a take. It means that when you mix, you concentrate on making things better, rather than trying fix or hide problems that you caused during the tracking stage.

Rich

[1 M.I.C]

ah i see, well thats good to know

thx

[brandondrury]

It's interesting that this thread came up. I had this written on Wednesday but didn't get around to posting it untili today.

Take All The Plugins Off The Vocals

As mentioned in the blog, it's EASY to start twisting knobs and "improving" things only to realize that you need to start over with a clean canvas. If you blow it during tracking, there isn't much you can do but live with it. I've been recording for 5 years now and I would be VERY cautious when tracking with compression and EQ. I've never actually used compression or EQ when tracking.

Now going back to the vocal sound. I'd like to know what he doesn't like about his vocal sound. Generally speaking, If I dont' like the way a vocal sounds, I ask the singer to sing it differently.

I'll be finished with my most important record ever in about a week (and then off to mastering). On that record, I've used 3 different mics on vocals. I used a Shure SM7, Soundelux U99, and Audio Technica AT4050. I couldn't tell you which song I used which mic on unless it was just from memory.

If I remixed them, I would probably hear different character in each track, but with the songs mostly mixed, I have no idea which song used what.

The moral of the story is that if you can't get what you are looking for with a mic like the Rode NT1, something is wrong. The preamp will do almost nothing to fix it. Preamps don't really fix anything. They are extremely subtle in most cases (with snare drum being the least subtle).

For me, the preamp thing is something you feel more than hear. I mean that by switching preamps, the sound won't change at all to a person without a trained ear. However, sometimes a preamp can make a track "feel" better.

With that said, the musician is the most important part of the chain. I've chosen to delay my income and work with the best musicians. I would say that this has been a MUCH bigger improvement to my recordings than any preamp would ever make.

Brandon

[1 M.I.C]

i think that he feels that his vocals arent as clear as they should be, as in the actual sound quality of his vocals aren't up to par with what he expected from the mic.

He said that it might be that, rather then messing with the vocals too much, that he might not mess with them enough, because now that he switched to cubase from adobe, it doesnt have all the effects that adobe does so he doesnt use them as much. but obviously if that IS the problem theres not much pre amp questions can do about it :P

but since i like learning new things, i ask u this.

if pre-amps do hardly nothing to improve what u hear then i have a question about the pre-amps with the built in soundcards.. if they dont have great sounding quality, is it because of the soundcard that is in them?

[brandondrury]

i think that he feels that his vocals arent as clear as they should be, as in the actual sound quality of his vocals aren't up to par with what he expected from the mic.

I'm not sure I understand the part about "actual sound quality of his vocals". Put in 10 different records in 10 different genres of music and the vocals sound absurdly different. As long as the music works, the engineering did it's job. You may be saying that the engineering is getting in the way of the music. Well then he needs to look deeper into why.

Listen to any Beatles record. Would you say the vocal tone was of "low sound quality"? I wouldn't. There is something magical about the vocal sounds that I've never gotten.

If we assume that ultra hi-fi vocals which I consider to be mid scooped and bright are of "high sound quality" then the Neuman U47 (one of the most diserable mics on the planet) would be of "low sound quality". When Michael Wagener showed me his Soundelux Elux47 (which is a $4,000 clone) everyone in the room snarled their nose up as if a skunk just hit us. However, that mic has probably been used on more records than any other microphone on the planet. It has to do with how the vocal fits in the mix.

Load up 10 songs from totally different albums and listen to this "quality" thing you are thinking of. You'll have a whole new philosophy on the subject.

My first gut feeling is if he feels that his vocals lack clarity, then he isn't mixing them to sound clear in the mix. I'll define clarity as being able to easily hear X in a mix. If the vocals aren't clear I would blame mixing skill before I blamed a microphone.

Watch a modern live concert DVD. Those guys are using SM 58s or Beta 58s and sound amazing. While a lot of modern concert DVDs are overdubbed, I watched a Foo Fighters acoustic DVD the other night and it was clearly real but still sounded amazing.

A vocal wouldn't be clear for a few reasons.
Reason #1 is the vocal track itself isn't clear.
- This could be using the wrong microphone.
- This could be the vocalist isn't performing clearly (the biggest reason)
- This could be the vocalist is too close to a cardiod mic and gettings lot of proxmity effect.

Reason #2 could be due to the rest of the track fighting with the vocal. You have to carve out holes for your vocals. If you can't hear a vocal, you are done. The song will fail. So you must cut something. That could be anywhere depending on the arrangement and tone of the vocal.

If you can, have him post something. I could help more if I heard the music first.

Brandon

[brandondrury]

if pre-amps do hardly nothing to improve what u hear then i have a question about the pre-amps with the built in soundcards.. if they dont have great sounding quality, is it because of the soundcard that is in them?

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking here.

I think you were asking this. "If built in preamps have poor sound quality is it because of the soundcard itself?"

That depends. Soundcards have to hit a pricepoint. That's why home recording gear is not nearly as expensive as pro gear. So the components used in soundcards with built in preamps are going to be cheaper than a dedicated preamp costing thousands of dollars. That doesn't necessarily mean it will sound worse. Just different.

Now if you are thinking that the souncard itself is bringing down the quality, I don't think so. The main thing that effects quality in a soundcard is the converters that convert the analog signal to digital. I have some expensive converters. Some people can hear a difference with the fancy soundcards. Others do not. That should answer your question as to how big of difference fancy converters make.

Of course, I'm assuming that we are talking about a real deal recording soundcard and not soundcard integrated into a motherboard or whatever.

Brandon

[1 M.I.C]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

My first gut feeling is if he feels that his vocals lack clarity, then he isn't mixing them to sound clear in the mix. I'll define clarity as being able to easily hear X in a mix. If the vocals aren't clear I would blame mixing skill before I blamed a microphone.

Yeah thats how i meant to say, and yeah id probably agree it is the mixing, but he seems to feel more comfortable with improving his gear regardless.

and as far as the soundcards, i understand what your saying, although i did ask the question wrong..

i actually meant to ask about things like usb audio interfaces mic pre amps, and what the differences in price are for, but i kinda realized that it was for the number of pre-amps, imputs, outputs and what not..

but yup i think my questions have been answered