Common stereo speakers for studio monitors?

[rbrick]

Hi phangeaux,

I'm really interested to see how the story turned out.

[phangeaux]

Originally Posted by rbrick

Hi phangeaux,

I'm really interested to see how the story turned out.

Hi Rick and Brandon, I'll reply to you both here.

It is an ongoing story, Rick.? I am about ready to join a forum with lots of recording studio people from the UK so I can get some info on some monitors I am looking at (made in the UK)? There is very little information on the web for this particular model, they appear to be very high quality, biwired and biampable (4 gold terminals with crossover on each speaker) this allows for separate lines to reduce noise,? ?inductive reactance and? phase distortion, I beleieve.? I suspect that they originally cost well over $1k. They are 'KEF Reference Series 101/3'? The KEY in that model number is the slash3 (/3) because they started making the 101 series in 1978 and made them for quite a long time. The /3 would indicate when they were manufactured and what engineering innovations are present in this set.? ? Historically KEF made very very high quality stuff, virtually hand made? engineered and tested.? ?The company was sold to new owners in about 1995 and spread out into the home theater market and I can't vouch for anything that they made after that sell out although KEF has some very expensive stuff on the market.

These monitors are a very fine piece of work, that's for sure.? My only concern is that I don't want to get something that is so old that the internal engineering is outmoded, so that is why I have been trying to get more details on these.

I should just say to heck with the details, take a big gamble and go buy them.? I think I can bring them home for $200 total.? I just have to be so careful about how I spend my limited funds.

With these I will have to buy a good stereo amplifier but that would be something nice to have in a studio anyway.

NOW, here is another relevent point.? You all have read my comments before that I never wanted to get tied up in studying recording studio technology as I didn't want to be a recording studio geek, I just want to create good music, which does require being able to record and mix/master multiple tracks. OBVIOUSLY one has to learn enough about home recording? to do this to make good use of recording equipment.

That being said, studying about studio monitors for several weeks (as related to sound quality, acoustics, mixing/mastering) HAS BEEN WELL WORTH THE TIME.? It is probably one of the most important aspects of the whole realm of recording and it is not just recording studio geek stuff it is MUSICIAN STUFF, valuable knowlege to the person plucking the strings or playing the Sax or Tuba or Kazoo.

I wrote a long reply the other night but didn't post it, so I will paste some clips from what I wrote then:
______________________________________________

I am getting a pretty good handle on this aspect of recording.? It's getting interesting and I'm learning about sound, acoustics, and a bit about mixing and mastering? along the way.

This knowlege will have alot of long term benefits, it is not just about recording but about playing well too.? I have become much more aware of the qualities of sound and I am thinking in terms of perfecting sound and tone in my playing techniques as well.? I was just playing my wooden acoustic after reading that Zen guys articles 1&2 about on amplifying acoustic guitar.? I was realizing for my part) that it gets right down to the quality of each single note, as played which can be improved. Try playing just 3 notes and see if you can make each of them sound better. (I was finger picking with a slide).? ?Now, if I could double the quality of? every note that I play I would sound twice as good and recording would sound alot better? (Thats my theory, LOL)? ?That's what I hope to be spending my time on rather than reading technical stuff for the next 6 months- I have a deadline to meet- some finished original recordings by this summer.?

My point above is that studying about studio monitors and everything related to them has given me a much better understanding and appreciation for sound quality from the moment a string is plucked until that note is processed and burned onto a finished CD.? This study has increased my awareness and I know that I have a much better ear now for music quality- AND as I am pointing out, this is not just recording geek stuff but is very important to the musician who is plucking the string or honking on the Kazoo.?


Brandon, as you have mentioned? in various other topics, the room accoustics and placement of speakers makes alot of difference, that is important.


Part of it is getting a good clear reproduction of the source sound (as recorded) and then played through the monitors.? I am convinced that quality does make a difference in studio monitors, that is why some cost $300. and others cost $3,000.? The more expensive ones are more finely engineered and SHOULD make the professional studio engineer's job easier,? but to get that sort of high quality may take alot of money.? So the rest of it is other factors as you have pointed out,? like the placement of the monitors, (which I read about and saw diagrams of-- the equilateral triangle thing- for a start) and then of course understanding sound waves and acoustics of the room to minimise reflections (echos) etc..? It seems that there are alot of different perspectives and opinions on all of this.

I would suggest that it is all about having a good ear and that requires at least a basic? understanding? of all of these principles and reasonings. Money doesn't buy that.? Then of course there is the mixing experience. The more you know (learn) the better it should turn out, right??

I really think that is the key: 'having a good ear' and in order to have one you need to have some knowledge about? all of this stuff I've been mentioning.? It certainly has not been a waste of time studying this aspect of recording.

With a 'GOOD EAR'? you can make the best of any equipment you use, even cheap thrift store stuff.? Expensive stuff like expensive studio monitors just make it? easier,? more accurate and less time consuming, probably.? HOWEVER, expensive monitors are NOT going to compensate for a lack of understanding about sound propagation and room acoustics and WHAT sound qualities we really need to to be attuned to.? As I pointed out, for the musician this knowlege applies not just in a home studio but? anywhere.? It has been a worthwhile study for me.

Brandon,? I agree with you in general about the guides and information on the web- it is difficult to find good clean unbiased information when the underlying motive is? to sell you a product.? It is often a bunch of hype and bullshit.? Anyone can make a relatively inexpensive? product that copies the engineering of very expensive ones, and THEN they can use the same terminology in describing that product, but it doesn't mean they are equal in quality.

I still think the bottom line is just having a good understanding of those things we have been talking about.? This will allow for the best result from whatever equipment you use.

HEY RICK, if you can find a small .gif or .jpg image that you like you can upload it into your profile and get rid of the 'I'm a pussy' logo.? That is how it is done.? You can do a search on avatars maybe.? I just picked an image off the web with a small file size and uploaded it.

Later

[phangeaux]

I was really sick with bronchitis when I wrote that last post, went to Dr. right afterwards and almost ended up in the hospital- recovering today, not sure what I wrote.

Anyhow, there is certainly no shortage of studio monitors around, the market is pretty well saturated with different brands and models. Ebay is another source.

I guess you have to be careful in selecting low priced monitors because of misleading advertizing. The terms 'reference' and 'monitor' can be used for regular home stereo/entertainment center speakers and some sellers may go to the extent of referring to those as 'studio monitors'.

I found this suspicious ad for example, claiming that these Fosgate Audionics FA61.0 speakers are 'Studio Monitors'. The Fosgate website does not use that term 'studio monitor' and the Fosgate manual for these speakers says that they are intended for home audio and home theater applications- nowhere does the manual mention 'studio monitors'. Further, this webpage says: quote: (note: Hafler is the same speaker as Fosgate but does not have include the Grills) end quote.

That's misleading bullshit! This company is trying to sell the pair of Fosgates for $169. using references and reviews to the Hafler TRM6 active studio monitors (which cost nearly $500 for a SINGLE MONITOR) implying that these Fosgates are virtually the same, and even better beacuase the have 'grills'. I am not going to accept that and especially in view of the fact that the manutacturer, Fosgate, does not claim that these are for use as studio monitors
Here is the webpage I am referring to:

http://www.audioweb.com/Store/StoreI...oreitemid=1162

I have been around for a long while and I know that as a rule you should never simply trust the sales pitch from someone who is trying to sell a product and should always look for independant reviews and evaluations.

Here's a cool speaker if you like a natural environment you can use these for nearfields, maybe even get a pet lizard to go with them:

http://dealnews.com/deals/Rock-Garde...11/101420.html

I may wait until after christmas and there may be reduced prices in January or usually February everything drops to post Christmas sale prices.

By the way, the whole Christmas holiday shopping season is in fact a huge tax evasion scam for retailers. They purposely overstock as much as they can, knowing that they can't sell it all, and the excess inventory that doesn't sell is a tax write off, measured against their sales/profits. If they havew enough money tied up in inventory overstock they don't have to pay any taxes on their sales even though they may have doene extremely well. Then in Jan. or Feb. they sell off the overstock at 30-50% off, and then (I think but am not certain) they are able write that off in some way as another business 'loss' even though they come out ahead, and then the whole pattern over again for the next year.

Christmas is a gigantic commercial tax scam, conventiently occuring at the end of December and has nothing to do with Jesus or the birth of Jesus who was not even born in December.

How did Santa Clause get into this picture anyway, and what does Santa Clause and North Pole and Elves have to do with the birth of Jesus anyway? It's all a big scam and people are so stupid.

Oooops, drifted off topic there.

[phangeaux]

The key to success is a good set of jumper cables.

So here's the question; I got a bad case of bronchitis, truck won't start because the battery is shot and temperatures have been getting below freezing, bad time of year to get stranded with a dead battery, so what do I do?

A) Buy a new battery.

or

B) Buy some studio monitors.


The correct answer of course is B) Buy some studio monitors, which is what I did.

I got a jump and got my truck started, checked out the auto parts place and a new battery was $49.99 plus tax, man that would cripple my music budget, So, instead I got $20 in gas and went to the pawn shop. I negotiated the price down on a set of KEF Reference 101-3 Series monitors from $238. (tax included) down to $175. (tax included)

I brought them directly over to my neighbor's house, he is an audiophile guy with lots of home stereo equipment and entertainment stuff. He thought (and it is obvious) that these are very high quality speakers and that I got a good deal.

We hooked them up to his stereo amp and compared them to his high end Polk Audio speakers and some other bigger speaker set he had, put on one of his favorite CDs (which was mostly fingerstyle guitar and vocal) and these sound so perfect and clear it's amazing It seemed like I could hear the guy's finger prints as they rubbed across the guitar strings and the vocal was very clear also. They sounded just like what I have been reading for weeks about how good studio monitors should sound. This was a real treat to hear these. I could hear qualities that couldn't be heard through the Polk speakers. I am very pleased, these will do just fine in my small recording area. I still don't know exactly what I have yet but every indication from the bits and pieces I have read, even from speaker high-tech people and audiophiles is that these are some top notch speakers, one of the best series that KEF ever made. I am not sure if these would be considered nearfield speakers- seems like they would be fine at any distance in a small room. I'll have to experiment with placing them. In any case, they sound great to me and my search for good monitors on a low budget is over (whew!)

This guy has a set in his studio and look what he has done. Brandon, you should really appreciate this whole article, go have a look:

Pro Studio Edition e-Newsletter
Bill Cuomo: From Player to Producer

http://www.discmakers.com/music/pse/cuomo.asp

>>He has arranged or produced tracks for a tremendous range of artists including Don Henley, Barbra Streisand, Whitesnake, Herb Alpert, and REO Speedwagon. He also arranged the title track for the James Bond flick Never Say Never Again.<
>Tannoy SGM-15 large monitor speakers
Tannoy 6.5 and Kef 101-3 small monitors
Carver amplifiers<

The next question is, what do I do?:

A) Buy a new battery for my truck

or

B) Buy a stereo amplifier

Here is a clue:

I have some really good quality 25' long jumper cables

[funtimesman]

jeez this thread is worthless....I don't see one mention of radio shack's minimus 7's or insignia's....blah blah, buy new expensive bs....your room is important....cables...the damn guy asked for specific brand names to look for in the speaker sections at thrift stores not random theoretical bs from people about monitors.

I personally think the studio monitor thing is one of the biggest swinddles ever. Basically, you want flat monitors (sound not shape) that do not accentuate either the bass or treble (smiley curve) as that will distort your perception of your mix and then it will sound way different on other speakers...

It shouldn't take $500 bucks to do that, come on! plus who wants some ginormous rockit 8's crowding up their room? the audio world is suck a d%ck measuring contest at the expense of performance, its ridiculous.

I already know about insignias and minimus 7's...but what about Amazon.com: KLH HT 9930 3-Piece 220-Watt Surround Sound System: Electronics

i saw just the two bookshelves at Goodwill today for $7...hook them up to a t-amp, how do you think they would do?

peace

[newkid]

Originally Posted by funtimesman

jeez this thread is worthless....I don't see one mention of radio shack's minimus 7's or insignia's....blah blah, buy new expensive bs....your room is important....cables...the damn guy asked for specific brand names to look for in the speaker sections at thrift stores not random theoretical bs from people about monitors.

I personally think the studio monitor thing is one of the biggest swinddles ever. Basically, you want flat monitors (sound not shape) that do not accentuate either the bass or treble (smiley curve) as that will distort your perception of your mix and then it will sound way different on other speakers...

It shouldn't take $500 bucks to do that, come on! plus who wants some ginormous rockit 8's crowding up their room? the audio world is suck a d%ck measuring contest at the expense of performance, its ridiculous.

I already know about insignias and minimus 7's...but what about Amazon.com: KLH HT 9930 3-Piece 220-Watt Surround Sound System: Electronics

i saw just the two bookshelves at Goodwill today for $7...hook them up to a t-amp, how do you think they would do?

peace

well if they were acoustic research AR3s they would blow you away. If they are cheapstuff from a cheap noname whitebox allinone "component" stereo you would sooner stuff hot wax in your ears than listen to them.

forget the monitors, get some decent headphones. You can hear more details that you miss on any speaker.