Another HELP! thread

[Egoclip]

Okay, before I start, this week I've been off work sick and I've spent the majority of my time surfing this amazing website/forum. I've been learning tons of information. You've all been a great help, and I know there's a lot of threads like this but maybe you could help me out more specifically in setting up my small home for recording.


1)My goal: To set up a small home studio for a) Making home recordings for my own material b) In my previous bands we've spent a lot of money recordings demo's at studios. Generally these recordings have been just to promote the band via the internet and to hand out at gigs. Also, these demo's really help give us an idea of how we're sounding from another point of view. For that purpose I would like to make home demo's more frequently that cost less money but are of a decent quality that we could still use them to promote. c) To simply learn about recording techniques.

2)Problems I need to overcome are that I don't have any experience with recording other than using Audacity with a really cheap computer microphone. I live in a high rise flat and I have people above, below and on either side of my house. My living room (which is where I would like to record) is quite small.

3)Because, realistically, I can't be playing loud in my house, I would like to build myself an isolation booth for smaller guitar amps. Does anybody have any advice on doing this? What is the best and cheapest material to line it with?
This seems the best home made isolation box I've seen online: http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm
Is there anything I could do differently when making mine?
I would also be looking to make a small vocal booth. Like a DIY version of this: http://www.realtraps.com/p_pvb.htm
I could also record vocals out in my hallway which runs past my living room and sits really quietly.


4)As far as mics are concerned I need a mic(s) for recording guitar amps and a mic for acoustic/percussion and singing. For recording guitars I've read about and the Shure SM 57 seems like the right choice for me to make and at the price I could probably get two. For acoustic guitar/perc&singing I think a condenser mic would be the right choice. I'm thinking maybe spending around the £100 mark for that. I don't have the experience of hearing the difference between a condenser microphone & dynamic infront of me so I'd like both for learning purposes as well. What do you recommend?

5)Now, down to sound cards. There seems like an endless amount of sound cards to choose from. I've tended to look at USB/Firewire interfaces. I did the Soundcard Wizard test on this site and it came up with the Presonus Firepod. It looks really great but I'm not sure if I'd need 8 pre-amps/inputs and I feel like maybe I'm paying too much for something I might not use. However, it sounds like it's good quality and fairly reliable.
I was also looking at the Delta 1010. This seems to crop up on every website I go to but it doesn't seem to come with in built pre-amps. Although it is quite cheap, I'm worried that it might be pricey. I might find it a bit awkward to use because it is internal.
I don't want to be buying a soundcard and a year down the line I need to get something better. I'd quite like to spend some money on getting soemthing I can learn with but also continue to get soemthing out of it even when I become a bit better.

6)Monitors - I don't have the first clue about monitors. Before I started reading up on them I didn't really take this into consideration but I now realise monitors are a really important part of the mix. Would really appreciate some help with this.

7)One of the biggest downsides to all of this is that I can't record drums. Fortunately I know the guys down at my local studio quite well and I know they would be more than willing to lend me some mics and help me record drums tracks in one of their rooms if I needed to record them seperately. I would like to do some at home though, especially after hearing the quality of some of the drum software you can get such as Drumkit From Hell.
The idea of having something physical to hit would be of use rather than laying down drum tracks with a midi keyboard (which I see one of my friends doing).
I like the look of the Alesis Control Pad http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALECONTROLPAD
Do you think that this is a good option?
I also spotted this. Do you think it would be a cheap option to hooking up to my computer? http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/s...roduct_id/8743
How do the rest of you lay down drum tracks?


Altogether I've got strictly no more than £1000 ($2016 USD I think!)
Is there anything I've missed out?


Jonny

[Drumlea]

Hi Egoclip.

I'm a relative newbie to this forum but I might have some suggestions. I'm sure some of the wise heads around here will have good info for you but I'll give it the best shot I can.

On the mic front there are many options open to you in the price range. I would suggest a Rode NT1 A (€189) for your condenser mic. I have some Rodes and the quality to price ratio is very good. Do buy an SM57. But you should spend as much as you can afford on mics. They are the start of you signal chain and it's best to get that right, and the room sound is important.

In my room I have a mattress in the corner, some cheap clothes rails from argos with wheels and duvets over these. They act like baffles and are very cheap. This is not ideal but when you're on a budget you gotta improvise. Ideally you could invest in acoustic foam etc. Try to minimise reflections and room sound as best you can is what I mean. You can add reverb and ambience if you like in your DAW. Unless you have an amazing sounding room.

You don't have to have your amp cranked to get a good sound. It's not about volume it's about tone. Led Zeppelin recorded their early stuff with a 6watt tube amp. Volume is only useful on stage in my opinion. But it depends on the amp.

Monitors really aren't my speciality as you will see from my thread which I think is just before yours. I won't comment on the soundcard/interface either as I don't have any experience in this area yet.

I think maybe because of your budget you should consider using drums inside the box. The Alesis Kit is good value but you will probably get better results from the drum machine. I'm a drummer and I can't believe I'm saying this but that money could be better spent on the other items you mentioned. You probably would not get a better sound or feel from the pads. But I am open to correction on this.

If you can get acoustic drums recorded great. Just don't forget you will need 5 plus inputs on your interface unless your friends or you have access to a mixer. I know you can get decent results with 2 mics but If it's a 5 piece kit I would expect a minimum of 5 mics to be used plus 2 overheads. So u need to take that into consideration.

I hope I was some help. I don't know about forum etiquette seeing as I'm only here a couple of days. I'm sure I'll get a wrist slappin from the senior members if I was a bold boy ha ha.

[thesilentdrummer]

Drumlea has some wise words. Let me add:

1) Good goals. I see you did you homework, like I have been doing over the last few months

2) We can help you here. People across all skill levels are willing to help.

3) Hey, that iso box is pretty cool! Brandon (site admin/owner) has his ghetto version of an Iso box. He calls it a guitar fort. I don't know what the cost of the box or noise reduction is on the box you linked, but the guitar fort fits a Marshall 4x12 recorded on 10 with no audible noise a couple rooms away, and costs about $250 (don't know the pound conversion). As for vocals, is an Iso board thing necessary? I walked up to one of those in guitar center and sang towards it, and didn't notice anything spectacular as far as noise reduction, if that's what you are going for.

4) Mics: yah, pick up a 57 and a cheap condenser. I am sure you saw this article since you said that. I would go for a 57 ($100) and a MXL 990/991 package ($80).

5) I want a Presonus Firepod. It is perfect for recording my drums. But you might not need that many inputs. Do the soundcard wizard again and put 2 or 4 inputs with 2 or 4 Preamps. that might give you some other options. remember, the delta 1010 requires a preamp for each channel, which means you will need to get a mixer to boost the mic levels for the 1010.

6) this is where my knowledge is limited. I don't know much about monitors other than this: you need to learn how your monitors sound. So take a CD you have down to the music store and listen to the monitors. Others can comment more on this.

7) Recording Drums: if you don't like to use the computer to program, then go for the surfaces. If the person playing doesn't have drum skills, go for the 8 pad thing. If they do have drum skills, then get the whole set looking thing. I would record at that studio if possible before doing drum recording at home that would require something expensive like the items you mentioned.

Don't know what that comes out to, but it should be pretty affordable.

[Egoclip]

Thanks for the replies so far!

Drumlea: I feel like I'm overlooking acoustics when I re-read my post. Even though I know that acoustic treatment in my room is important, it's just too easy to overlook it and get carried away with equipment. The clothes rail/duvet idea is worth a try since I already have those things at hand. That might also be useful when I come to record vocals.

I'm going to measure the dimensions of my room tomorrow. I'll try and draw out a map of what my room is like so I can see what I'm doing in my head and so other people can get an idea as well. I already roughly know where things sound better around the room from playing acoustic and singing in different spots. I automatically seem to go to the same places in my room to play because it sounds better. I never really thought about it though until I started reading some articles on this site.
I can get soundproofing foam at a decent price off somebody I know locally. Is the best thing to buy some and experiment with it in different parts of the room? I'm not sure how I could work out where I should be putting it any other way!

It would be extremely difficult to record acoustic drums here. They would just be far too noisey for my neighbours. Recording them seperately at a studio was one of my ideas but it slightly defeats some of the purpose of having a home studio in the first place. I would probably only be looking to do this in the case of a demo I am using for some promotion and I wanted it to sound that bit better. Really, my only other option is to simulate drums but I'm really not sure on the best way to go about this. I've had a look at drum triggers as well such as the M-Audio Finger Trigger. I'm finding it hard to know whether they are a waste of money or not, and if they are, what other options do I have? I'd really love to hear some good examples of using virtual drums and how they got the results they wanted.
It's ashame that I don't really have the opportunity to record drums. For learning purposes I think I could have some really good fun playing with the acoustics on a drum set up.

Oh, and I thought I'd mention that the tracks you have up on your myspace sound excellent. Nice one!

thesilentdrummer: Maybe a vocal booth isn't completely necessary. It's hard to know since I've never done it before. I suppose the best thing to do would be to just experiment with different ideas once I got the microphones. Maybe use a suggestion like Drumlea made and get some duvets etc.
The MXL 990 package looks good. I'll keep it in mind. Funnily enough I had already looked at it.
The guitar fort is a pretty good idea. I might consider using rockwool. I'll need to have a look through the yellow pages and see who supplies it and at what price.
Although I originally said 8 inputs might be too much, I think I would quite like to have them anyway. I think in the longterm I could make good use of them!
Your advice is good on the whole drumming thing. I need to think about it a bit more.

As far as monitors are concerned, I'm looking at the M-Audio BX8a's. Any experience with these? Best advice, like you already said, is probably to go around the shops and see if I can hear them for myself.

Thanks!

[thesilentdrummer]

I don't know about specific brands of monitors sorry.

I do like the firepod a lot. having the ability to use 8 simultaneous inputs gives you significant flexibilty. Just make sure not to overlook recording software for your computer.

[Drumlea]

Hi again Egoclip,

I was just checkin out the Firepod. It looks like really good value and you can check out this review in Sound On Sound (you probably saw it already).

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...es/firepod.htm

You get some decent Cubase software with it as well. It's a good idea in my opinion to get an 8 input interface. Plus if and when you decide to upgrade it will be more attractive to sell.

The drum problem is a little tough alright. I live in a semi-detached house and I have the exact same prob. But I'm looking for somewhere in the country. I'm in Ireland so it's not too far away ha ha. Anyway, with Cubase you will have sampling options open to you so you could sample individual drums and get all creative. Check this video out;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIe3ifmoDM

and maybe this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul9JiRX5yAI

The first guy is mad but I think he rocks. You could just apply drums instead of rubber bands. He is using Traktion but I'm sure Cubase has an even more powerful sampler. And you could buy an extra cheap usb keyboard like a M-AUDIO KEYSTATION 49E for £51 (against the M-Audio Trigger Finger £108) which would be more versatile that a drum pad. It's just a thought.

You can trigger any built in drum sounds in your software with the keyboard and of course piano/synth sounds. Plus there will be some excellent grooves included with Cubase.

I'm just running these ideas by you because I know how frustrating having neighbours can be, from a recording point of view naturally. Plus it could be fun and I'm getting some ideas myself, but ideally acoustic drums would be great.

The reason I'm not too keen on the control pads is that you will probably be quantizing the beats anyway once they get into Cubase. I don't know if this stuff is too advanced, it's all ahead of me, but it's something to think about and might be better for your budget.

Oh and thanks for the kind words on my music, I was using a BR900CD and for the Bluegrassy song I recorded the kick and snare separately. You might have to just get a rehearsal room to do some tracks with live drums. Until you sort that out you can still produce tracks and just lay the drums down at your ease.

Best bet is to have a listen to the monitors alright but remember they will sound different in your room. At the moment I have Alesis M1 Active MkII monitors and they are nice. They have a good stereo image and are reasonably good for the price range your thinking about.

Ok hope I didn't make things more confusing for ya bud.

Besta luck,

Brian.

[brandondrury]

I would like to build myself an isolation booth for smaller guitar amps.

Guitar Fort

I would also be looking to make a small vocal booth.

Vocal Booths: Why You Don't Need One!

I've read about and the Shure SM 57 seems like the right choice for me to make and at the price I could probably get two.

57s are great guitar mics. I also have a Royer R121 that costs 10x as much as a 57. It sounds different than a 57, but I could do everything I need to with a 57 and be fine.

I'm thinking maybe spending around the £100 mark for that. I don't have the experience of hearing the difference between a condenser microphone & dynamic infront of me so I'd like both for learning purposes as well. What do you recommend?

Take a look at the Audio Technica stuff. It's hard to go wrong at with Audio Technica at your budget.

I did the Soundcard Wizard test on this site and it came up with the Presonus Firepod. It looks really great but I'm not sure if I'd need 8 pre-amps/inputs and I feel like maybe I'm paying too much for something I might not use.

Make sure you select that you only need 2 analog inputs when using the soundcard wizard. There are a ton of 2 channel audio interfaces.

Monitors - I don't have the first clue about monitors. Before I started reading up on them I didn't really take this into consideration but I now realise monitors are a really important part of the mix. Would really appreciate some help with this.

What's your budget? How serious do you want to be? A ton of money spent on monitors is worthless if A) You don't spend 2,000 mixing on them to learn how they translate to other systems. B) Don't have acoustic treatment. Everything else in the chain also becomes a little more worthless the crappier your monitoring situation is.

I like the look of the Alesis Control Pad http://www.zzounds.com/item--ALECONTROLPAD
Do you think that this is a good option?

I use a mouse for my programming and I'm usually happy. There are times when a different gadget would be useful, though. Something like DFH Superior with a gadget or electronic drum thingy connected to it would be a killer setup.

[brandondrury]

Now that I've answered the first post, it's time to start some fights.

Volume is only useful on stage in my opinion. But it depends on the amp.

No, I wouldn't go that far. There is a HUGE difference between pregain and power tube distortion. HUGE! Now, it is worth getting evicted over? No. But if I have the option, I'm going with power tube distortion every time.

With my 1971 Marshall Superlead, I have no option. There is no gain built into the amp. I have to crank it or use pedals. I don't own any distortion pedals.

I don't know about forum etiquette

What the hell is eitqueete? BURP!

Even though I know that acoustic treatment in my room is important, it's just too easy to overlook it and get carried away with equipment.

Great music and great acoustics is all you really need. The rest will take care of itself. The people who go on and on about mics and preamps either have a TREMENDOUS sounding room already or are braindead scum.

Drums
One day I decided that I didn't want to do drums at my place anymore. If a band wants to record with me, we do drums in a place that was designed to do drums. It's as simple as that.

If you really want to do drums at your place, get an electronic kit and get it to work with DFH Superior. You'll have tremendous drums in no time.

Best bet is to have a listen to the monitors alright but remember they will sound different in your room. At the moment I have Alesis M1 Active MkII monitors and they are nice. They have a good stereo image and are reasonably good for the price range your thinking about.

I don't agree with the "listening" to the monitor. You listen to speakers you want to have fun on. You test how mixes translate on speakers designed to translate your mixes. Does that make sense? In other words, the only real way to know if a monitor is happening for you in your room is to do a mix and see how it translates to the rest of the world. The right set of monitors should sound pretty good on every system. The wrong set of monitors...your mix will sound completely different everywhere you take it.

[Drumlea]

There is a HUGE difference between pregain and power tube distortion. HUGE! Now, it is worth getting evicted over? No. But if I have the option, I'm going with power tube distortion every time.

With my 1971 Marshall Superlead, I have no option. There is no gain built into the amp. I have to crank it or use pedals. I don't own any distortion pedals.

Okay point taken BUT put this in the context of an appartment. I know my Framus Ruby Riot on the clean channel sounds beautiful when the valves are driven a bit but can be sweet down low as well. The dirty channel has a master volume. As I said it depends on the amp. I think in a lot of situations decent recording needs to go outside the home especially for live drums.

The people who go on and on about mics and preamps either have a TREMENDOUS sounding room already or are braindead scum.

I don't understand this statement. Have you been hurt at some time by a mic loving preamp Brandon?

I don't agree with the "listening" to the monitor. You listen to speakers you want to have fun on. You test how mixes translate on speakers designed to translate your mixes. Does that make sense? In other words, the only real way to know if a monitor is happening for you in your room is to do a mix and see how it translates to the rest of the world. The right set of monitors should sound pretty good on every system. The wrong set of monitors...your mix will sound completely different everywhere you take it.

Yeah that's valid. I suppose I should've added that as the music will be heard on crappy CD players, as mp3s, on home systems etc. It's a fair cop guv. The main thing with the monitors is they give an honest representation of the mix.

Glad there were no blows traded. But I haven't been a member for even a week yet......

Have you had any thoughts yet Egoclip?

[Egoclip]

Check this video out;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIe3ifmoDM
and maybe this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul9JiRX5yAI

Those videos were quite helpful. I think it would be a lot of fun taking a few hours to get some good drums sounds in the studio and sample them for use in the home.
I've never used a midi controller for laying down drum tracks. I'm just not sure on how easy it would be without a drumkit sitting infront of you, especially more complicated patterns, which is why I like the idea of electronic drums for home but after reading plenty of reviews on the kits, I think anything decent is wayyyy out of my budget. I'd probably be looking at just taking a lot of time out to learn how to use some cheaper equipment such as the keystation to good effect.

At the moment I have Alesis M1 Active MkII monitors and they are nice.

I'll have a look at them when I'm about the shops over the weekend (that's if any of the shops here have them!)

But I'm looking for somewhere in the country.

Ah, a quiet place in the country to record. I'll dream on..

Guitar Fort

I had a look at this already. It's a great, simple idea. I spoke to my brother who used to work with some builders. He's pretty sure they have some spare rockwool lying about so figners crossed!

I use a mouse for my programming and I'm usually happy.

This sounds like it takes a lot of time (although I'm not expecting results at the click of my fingers). Do you have any good examples of using drums with just a mouse or midi keyboard?

One day I decided that I didn't want to do drums at my place anymore. If a band wants to record with me, we do drums in a place that was designed to do drums. It's as simple as that

I think I should change my outlook on not being able to record drums in my flat. Thinking about it more...even if I could record and didn't have any neighbours about me, would I still want to record there? The answer is no. The rooms are far too small. I think it would be extremely difficult for me to get the sound I wanted with the experience I have anyway. Doing drums in the studio is a much better idea and will still save me a ton of money if I can get the majority of my demos/promo in the house.

Oh, and a question about rockwool.
I see you;ve used quite a lot of rockwool for your guitar fort. How good do you think it would be if I built the MDF box and lined it with that? That other guy lines his box with soundproofing foam and claims to secure the sound pretty well. I'm wandering what would be better. Would the shape of the soundproofing foam give me a better sound? Would it be any different to using rockwool?



Looking about the forum the same questions seemed to get asked over and over again. You guys must get sick of repeating yourselves. It must take us newbies 10 times of telling before we understand anything haha.

Thanks again.