What Makes A Sound "BIG"?

[brandondrury]

What makes a sound "big"?

I've never really came up with a good answer for this one. Obviously, volume makes a sound big. Sometimes low end can do it. Sometimes it's too low. It seems like lower mids can do it, but that stuff can get muddy and nasty in a hurry. Some vocals sound "huge" and don't seem to have any low end or lower low mids to speak of.

Sometimes hard panning two differing instruments (the doubled guitar thing) can sound big. Sometimes it just sounds okay.

Any ideas on what makes a sound "big"?

Brandon

[garww]

Think of surf crashing and steam locomotives ! An Apollo liftoff ? A cacophony of generated harmonics arriving from all directions

[garageband]

If they are sounds similar to those of large things.

Field trip project: next big-screen space epic that comes to your neighborhood multiplex, go see it and pay close attention to the sound design.

[fHumble fHingaz]

I like Garww & GB's descriptions... Within the finite framework of a mix, first up, I would say an additional aspect is contrast/juxtaposition - exaggerating the contrast between large & small sounds using eq, compression, ambience & stereo width will help to make things sound "BIG". For perceptions to be manipulated, you need to create a frame of reference first, so IMO these psycho-acoustic "tricks" are actually much more important than simply the level of the sound.

[jimsies]

Hi All,

From a music perspective a band (here I'm referring to a Jazz Big Band, Orchestra, Concert band etc) sounds big when instruments are in tune (I mean really in tune) and they nail the rhythms and rests and the whole group works together like a finely tuned machine. Even low volume levels sound 'big' when they players play like this. I think any band incl rock/pop follows this phenomenon.

IMO when instruments are in tune then they sound big - not necessarily loud - but big. A well tuned pair (or more) of instruments will cut through a band (perhaps mix?) due to the nature of the frequencies being re-enforced.

Not sure how this relates to recording but maybe you'll only get a 'big' sound if the performers can perform 'big'!

[na118]

I like Garww & GB's descriptions... Within the finite framework of a mix, first up, I would say an additional aspect is contrast/juxtaposition - exaggerating the contrast between large & small sounds using eq, compression, ambience & stereo width will help to make things sound "BIG". For perceptions to be manipulated, you need to create a frame of reference first, so IMO these psycho-acoustic "tricks" are actually much more important than simply the level of the sound.

Spot on!

Musicians have a HUGE part in how big the song sounds by the instrument selection, arrangement, and performance. Probably a lot more than we do on the engineering side.
In terms of a song/mix in general I think the idea of starting small and adding in instruments or layers REALLY makes the denser part of the mix sound much larger than it really is. Then when the band kicks in it sounds larger than it normally would since you got the listener tuned in to a specific sound. If you can get the listener anticipating something big sounding it can really punch them in the face when it comes in.

I have a specific song in mind that I personally think is a decent example for this idea. You might like the song/mix but I think it's a good example of starting off with something small sounding, building the listeners anticipation little by little, and layering not so large sounding instruments to make the band sound much larger.

Here's the youtube link, the compression kind of screwed with it but you can get the idea
The Thermals - Here's Your Future - YouTube

It starts off with an organ and guitar that I'm pretty sure no one would call "big" sounding. Vocals enter, they have a bit of meat and a lot of harmonic content to them. Drums enter, but there's still a lot of room in the mix. The fade in of the guitar feedback lets you know something big is going to happen. When the full band comes in it is very jarring in terms of loudness, what frequencies are represented, and how many different parts are going on. There are a couple different doubled guitar parts playing. It sounds like there is one playing lower power chords (maybe power chords with the above 3rd added) that might have some meat to them but definitely don't stand out in terms of presence. On top of them it seems there's doubled guitar playing in the middle/upper registers, probably an octave above the other ones, and they are probably high passed reasonably high and would sound pretty small by themselves. There might be some other similar guitar parts in there as well. There's kind of a wall of distorted guitars, but when you listen closely none of them are really have as much distortion (except the solo one) as the whole product seems to.

This might not be the best example (there are probably a million better ones) but I think it's a decent example on how the arrangement of a song both in terms of a buildup and layering a bunch of not too big sounding instruments. It's not a very hi fi sound compared to modern rock but as garww said, theres "A cacophony of harmonics arriving from all directions"

EDIT: Crap, I'm thinking in terms of a mix. Brandon were you referring to an individual sound in a mix or the sound of the mix in general?

[rook2c4]

Concerning composition, sometimes layering multiple instruments, with each instrument playing a different part, can sound massive like a symphony... if done right. But one needs to watch out that the mix doesn't become too congested. One dynamically driven approach is to alternate back and forth between sparse instrumentation and richly layered, complex instrumentation. When the layered instrumentation section hits, it hits big!

[na118]

Concerning composition, sometimes layering multiple instruments, with each instrument playing a different part, can sound massive like a symphony... if done right. But one needs to watch out that the mix doesn't become too congested. One dynamically driven approach is to alternate back and forth between sparse instrumentation and richly layered, complex instrumentation. When the layered instrumentation section hits, it hits big!

Damn, that's what I meant just much more concise!

[garww]

In my earlier years, BIG was Beatles, Motown, Chicago(CTA) - maybe Styx. Just now. it was CTA who came to mind. Letting parts having their space in the arrangement.

[JL2556]

IMO when instruments are in tune then they sound big - not necessarily loud - but big. A well tuned pair (or more) of instruments will cut through a band (perhaps mix?) due to the nature of the frequencies being re-enforced.
Not sure how this relates to recording but maybe you'll only get a 'big' sound if the performers can perform 'big'!

I know if your doubling a rtyhum guitar track (and panning them hard left and right) it sound bigger when you have 1 guitar tuned a few cents down from the other...

[rook2c4]

I know if your doubling a rtyhum guitar track (and panning them hard left and right) it sound bigger when you have 1 guitar tuned a few cents down from the other...

Unfortunately the down side to that is, when the stereo field collapses - such as when you distance yourself from the speaker pair while the song is playing - that detuned guitar pair doesn't sound good at all. It sounds like one of the guitars is just plain out of tune. Unless you are recording/mixing for headphone use only, it's best to keep both of the guitars in tune with each other and perhaps use a chorus effect on one of them instead.

[JL2556]

Unfortunately the down side to that is, when the stereo field collapses - such as when you distance yourself from the speaker pair while the song is playing - that detuned guitar pair doesn't sound good at all. It sounds like one of the guitars is just plain out of tune. Unless you are recording/mixing for headphone use only, it's best to keep both of the guitars in tune with each other and perhaps use a chorus effect on one of them instead.

Yep, I have done that before, too far apart on the tuning. I have had decent results doing this though. The guitars were just barely out of tune from each other, as a little goes a long way. I found out as well, that this works a little better when you have more things going on in the tune. You are correct though, it's not the best tool for getting a big sound, but it might work depending on what your working on.

[m24p]

Unfortunately the down side to that is, when the stereo field collapses - such as when you distance yourself from the speaker pair while the song is playing - that detuned guitar pair doesn't sound good at all. It sounds like one of the guitars is just plain out of tune. Unless you are recording/mixing for headphone use only, it's best to keep both of the guitars in tune with each other and perhaps use a chorus effect on one of them instead.

I'm fairly certain when he said "a few cents" he meant both guitars are still making the tuner give a green light to let you know it's in tune. Checking in mono will help make sure you didn't screw it up.

[Firedance]

Concerning composition, sometimes layering multiple instruments, with each instrument playing a different part, can sound massive like a symphony... if done right. But one needs to watch out that the mix doesn't become too congested.

This!

Different kinds of "big" of course too.

This is a variety of big from 1977. I absolutely love the sound of this. Great song anyway.

DAVID BOWIE - HEROES - YouTube

Of course being a shit hot engineer/producer helps. As does having one of the most sonically inventive guitarists to hand.

[garww]

"Big Country" had a Big Sound, also.

[DanTheMan]

You would think being exactly in tune/time making perfect harmonies would make for a bigger sound. I've noticed when my harmonies are spot on you can almost hear another singer, but not really.

Another thing is panning to increase the apparent source width. Broad patterned loudspeakers will also sound "bigger." People actually prefer these 'bigger' sounds. Waveguided loudspeakers actually reduce this effect and are often described as more 'honest.' So you can take a track, double it and pan the double to the other side and it will sound bigger. Same goes for things like drums where you have the stereo overhead mic. You can take the snare and pan it where it's not located by the stereo mics and it should sound a bit bigger. It might also sound less 'tight.' I don't think the effect is as good for drums and quick noises as it is for sustained notes.

Certainly compression and EQ tricks can also help increase the effect as well.

Dan

[rook2c4]

This is a variety of big from 1977. I absolutely love the sound of this. Great song anyway.

DAVID BOWIE - HEROES - YouTube

Of course being a shit hot engineer/producer helps. As does having one of the most sonically inventive guitarists to hand.

Yes, that sure is a big sound!
Motown producers churned out some big sounds too, with the help of generous reverberation and clever arrangements - despite relatively few tracks by today's standards:

Marvin Gaye "Whats Going On" (1971) - YouTube

[paul999]

For me bigness is a bunch of factors. Most of it has to do with having 2 things in the sonic field at once. One small and the other big. It is the relationship between the 2 that make sound appear big. For example you don't get a HUGE zepplin kick without and smaller bass tone. A really "in your face" big guitar tone without any room reflections is smaller then an ever so slight amount of room tone or early reflections. Too much room and the guitar sounds small again in comparison. Harmonics definitely play a role distortion, transients, frequency spectrum all kept in balance make a source feel what ever size you need it to.

[brandondrury]

I would say an additional aspect is contrast/juxtaposition - exaggerating the contrast between large & small sounds

I never really thought of it in these terms. Granted, we all notch out X to make the whole puzzle fit, I never really thought of the idea that maybe notching Track A even more is going to, in theory, make Track B seem even bigger. Hmmmm. I'll have to dabble with intentionally overusing EQ in that way. There could be something to it.

IMO when instruments are in tune then they sound big - not necessarily loud - but big. A well tuned pair (or more) of instruments will cut through a band (perhaps mix?) due to the nature of the frequencies being re-enforced.

It makes sense that two thingies with the same pitch but different timbre are going to fill in more gaps and have more "density" without needing more peak level. I could see how this would lead to sounding "big".

Brandon

[garww]

"Another thing is panning to increase the apparent source width. Broad patterned loudspeakers will also sound "bigger." People actually prefer these 'bigger' sounds".

That is very true, Dan. Or it was, anyway. Bose 901(and it's equalizer), for example. Crosstalk and phase type issues with electronics trying to keep a stereo image are problems, also. I've said before that it's hard to get a big sound out of nearfields and I think that should be apparent by just looking at the design.

Anyway, Big Band pretty much started this and they've been trying to bring that into the studio ever since. They had to get a Big sound out of MONO radios - Count Basie, The Platters, anyone named Fats or Frankie, Supremes, etc.. (now I'm on a Heateave kick)

[jimsies]

Anyway, Big Band pretty much started this and they've been trying to bring that into the studio ever since. They had to get a Big sound out of MONO radios - Count Basie, The Platters, anyone named Fats or Frankie, Supremes, etc..

I was at 'Generations in Jazz' (Schools jazz festival in Mt Gambier, SA) this year and one of the Big Bands that performed in the concerts had an amazingly big sound. It was loud, as it was all amplified, but it was more than that - the sound just seemed to fill you up and then explode. I wish they had done a recording of it cos' i reckon it would translate really well to CD etc.

I really do think it comes down to good performers performing well together (whether live or in a studio). It's what I always aim to do with the bands that I lead. You can engineer the hell out of something but if the sound isn't big to begin with then I reckon you might be pushing the you-know-what uphill!

[garww]

I was at 'Generations in Jazz' (Schools jazz festival in Mt Gambier, SA) this year and one of the Big Bands that performed in the concerts had an amazingly big sound. It was loud, as it was all amplified, but it was more than that - the sound just seemed to fill you up and then explode. I wish they had done a recording of it cos' i reckon it would translate really well to CD etc.

I really do think it comes down to good performers performing well together (whether live or in a studio). It's what I always aim to do with the bands that I lead. You can engineer the hell out of something but if the sound isn't big to begin with then I reckon you might be pushing the you-know-what uphill!

There is "something" to this. A couple lines from Wiki on Basie;

"In that city in October 1936, members of the band participated in a recording session which producer John Hammond later described as "the only perfect, completely perfect recording session I've ever had anything to do with"".

"In May 1970, Sinatra performed in London's Royal Festival Hall with the Basie orchestra, in a charity benefit for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Sinatra later said of this concert "I have a funny feeling that those two nights could have been my finest hour, really. It went so well; it was so thrilling and exciting"".

[jimsies]

"In May 1970, Sinatra performed in London's Royal Festival Hall with the Basie orchestra, in a charity benefit for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Sinatra later said of this concert "I have a funny feeling that those two nights could have been my finest hour, really. It went so well; it was so thrilling and exciting"".

I've listened to recordings of Sinatra with the Basie Orchestra and that band was really kickin'! It is quite easily some of the best recorded big band stuff around. And the sound - well it totally fits with the thread of this post! Talk about 'Big' sound!!

[shackman]

No mention of crazy Phil Spector. You can't be talking about BIG then!

[jimsies]

With reference to the Big Band stuff, check this clip of Tony Bennett with the Basie Band. It was used on the movie 'Click'. This is the epitome of 'Big' sound i reckon.

The stereo panning of the saxes (L) and brass (R) is cool - esp. the trombone at 1:12.

The last 10 secs is amazing! The sax soli (1:24) is a prime example of a sound being 'big' without necessarily loud.

"With Plenty Of Money And You" - Count Basie & Tony Bennett - YouTube