what do you think of this metal tone?Don't know what else to try... PART 2

[YogSogoth]

This is a continuation of my previous post.I didn't know if i had to post it there (would anyone have seen it?) so I made this new post.This is the engl savage again recorded 4 times for every channel.I recorded in low gain and played the parts 8 times total without changing anything.The thing is I like this new sound but the main riff sounds like it has delay on it and it is not so tight.I know you will say it's due to the performance but come on the riff is not that tricky.How the other guys are doing it and it sounds like one guitar?and they're playing difficult riffs.The thing is I grouped 4 tracks together for one channel and the same for the other and I put a mild eq to these groups only to get rid of the low rubble.Should I have eq'ed each track separately?Do you have any ideas how professionals do it?One last remark:when I listened to the song in my studio monitors the delay kind of thing I mentioned earlier was so obvious!!!listening now to the speakers I have at my other computer the difference is not so much apparent.Or is it my idea?(due to the many hours of listening to it in my studio monitors?)Anyway any thoughts and help would be appreciated.
Thanks

[brandondrury]

I like this new sound but the main riff sounds like it has delay on it and it is not so tight.I know you will say it's due to the performance but come on the riff is not that tricky.

Playing "Back In Black" with exceptional timing is something that maybe 2% of the guitar players I've recorded can do.

I've said it for years. Get in the control room with Butch Vig, analog tape, and see how long it takes you to get the intro to Smells Like Teen Spirit right. I'd imagine 99% of us would take a full day and I'm not remotely kidding.

8 tracks played at exactly the same level requires UBER precision. This is why I don't love the sound of even just 4 tracks in most cases unless we can go in and NUTS on the details. Watch Dragonforce's live stuff on Youtube. They aren't 1/10th as tight as they on their records. I'd imagine in most cases they are taking a day per guitar player per song for rhythm tracks. Editing can help.

The conventional wisdom is that you are supposed to have a million layers of guitar for awesome metal tones. Some guys do get it to work for them. It doesn't work for me often so I ditch it. You are gonna find out that there are 2,000 tricks that some people say you "HAVE" to do. Either they work for you or they don't. This gig is too complex for all tools to work for all people in all situations.

A good one is the "kick drum cannon". You take a barrel, line the inside with studio foam and then put it in front of the kick drum to it looks like the kick drum is 6' long. You put a mic in the end and then cover it with blankets to kill any leakage. Sometimes this sounds exactly like a canon. Sometimes it sounds like you wasted an hour. To this day, in some circles I still hear people constantly preaching that you are SUPPOSED to do this. No you aren't. You are supposed to use your brain and ears and solve hindrances to musical intensity.

In most cases, there is more back story than you realize. They say "Use 8 layers" or "Use the kick drum cannon" but they don't say how or what else is going on. Maybe there are only 2 main guitar tracks in the mix and the other 6 are down 12dB? Who knows.

My earsbuds are missing and I'm not ready to get up this morning so I'll give your mp3s a listen soon.

Brandon

[willj]

This is the engl savage again recorded 4 times for every channel.I recorded in low gain and played the parts 8 times total without changing anything.

Theres part of your problem. Shoot for a great sound and record your first guitar track on your left channel. Tear all your shit down and put it away. Put it back in the cases. Wipe all the dust off your cords off real good because they will be stored for about 5 minutes. Now, go get all your gear out again, but grab a different guitar, a different mic and go into a different room, and shoot for another great guitar sound. Record all of these track on to your right channel.

And thats about it. You wont really gain alot from double tracking to quad or more tracking. Its just not necessary.
That will solve most of your problem.

Should I have eq'ed each track separately?

A bit yes, but its mostly all taken care of the way i mentioned. You'll still need to cut different mud spots or whatever, but a lot of the work is done.

Do you have any ideas how professionals do it?

They have great sounding gear. From the guitar to the amp to the mic to the pres to the room. All of it. No weak links. Id guess they have atleast $5,000 in the guitar rig alone.
Maybe borrowed a lot of it too because they cant even find it to buy. Maybe modded.

In regards to your delay, sometimes bussing tracks to group channels with plugins on them can cause a delay, or even overdubbing while listening to other tracks you already have recorded. Just use drums ,bass and the track you are cutting.

The monitors

when I listened to the song in my studio monitors the delay kind of thing I mentioned earlier was so obvious

different speakers disguise things in different ways.

In regards to the guitar sound itself, i think you are on the right track. It sounds good. Definitely room for improvement, but its hard to expect world class guitar tone if you cant compete with world class $$$$.

Good luck.

[YogSogoth]

Hey guys thanks for the imput.Hey Brandon, wake up and let me see what you think.I'm wating for your input.
to willjrockstar
"And thats about it. You wont really gain alot from double tracking to quad or more tracking. Its just not necessary."
I tried quad tracking cause I wasn't satisfied with the distortion sound of just one guitar per channel.too "crackling" if you know what i mean.Perhaps i'll buy a ts9 tubescreamer and see what happens.I heard a lot of people are using it infront of an amp.What do you think?On the other hand I liked the sound I came up with quad tracking but all other kind of problems appeared.I guess the struggle is never over

[willj]

How to quote; Copy and paste sentences into the reply box. Highlight sentences you want to quote by left clicking and dragging. Click the quote cymbal in the tool bar above. just left of the ABC.

Perhaps i'll buy a ts9 tubescreamer and see what happens.I heard a lot of people are using it infront of an amp.

Ive only ever known these or any of the others to add gain. Doesnt sound like something you need to do. Might create a bit of a new sound out of your amp, but wont really improve on what you currently have. Just add distortion.

It sounds like you might be approaching it a little backwards. Im guessing from your reply you must have heard recently to track with less distortion than you think. I wouldnt worry about it if thats the case. It doesnt sound like youre going over the top with distortion. Just roll it back a little. No need to make your guitar playing uncomfortable. Sure you dont want a ton of distortion and yes the more trax you do the more you'll want to cut it back, but the max times you need to lay the same guitar track down is four. You probably only really need two!

What happens when you want the chorus to intensify? are you going to track 12 or 16 guitars?

Most engineers will double track but record three or four amps at once and blend them.

Heres what id do - Get the sound out of the amp that you love. Then cut the distortion back a little. Just enough to clean it up some. Start there with your micing.

You'll make yourself sick chasing tone. if youre not getting the sound you want its 75% because your guitar and amp doesnt sound the way you want. Just get the best sound you can from your amp and dont worry about what youve heard.When the distortion is a problem you'll know or somebody will tell you.

[YogSogoth]

thanks willjrockstar for the quote lesson
and the tips.if you could go to this link:
what do you think of this metal tone?Don't know what else to try...
and hear my Sound test Engl.mp3‎ sample it would be great.It is double recorded but you will see the distortion sounds more harsh than the one in this topic (which to me sounds smoother).Thus my frustration.
I tried to mix different amps like you said -the engl and the peavey 6505- but they are so different and not good results came out of it.

Heres what id do - Get the sound out of the amp that you love. Then cut the distortion back a little. Just enough to clean it up some. Start there with your micing.

(I got it!)
I actually tried that (it's the Sound test Engl.mp3 clip) but the sound seems to me just like that.A metal guitar with inadequate distortion.Ok maybe i'll have to give it a shot again more seriously.
The thing is I want to make a good test recording for my bandmate who is convinced -and it is difficult to change his my mind- that the only way to record metal guitar is with the use of guitar effects processors like his boss gt6 and setting it to ultra high gain.(total disaster!)With the example I posted in this topic I just wanted to show him just one of the guitars recorded (with low distortion) and then show him the sound with all the guitars combined and how the sound alters.
Again thanks for the suggestions

[brandondrury]

And thats about it. You wont really gain alot from double tracking to quad or more tracking. Its just not necessary.

As much as I'm not a fan of the use of tons of layers, I probably wouldn't go THAT far. I'd probably say the only way to sound like it's using 8 layers is to use 8 layers. Whether that's a good thing or not is another issue.

The bands I work with almost always have a finite budget and have to pick their battles based on impact per $$. 2 layers tends to be plenty when done well.

Perhaps i'll buy a ts9 tubescreamer and see what happens.I heard a lot of people are using it infront of an amp.What do you think?

It's a different sound. Whether it's THE sound for you is another story. For some reason, metal guitar has more "rules" to it than any other instrument I've ever seen and one of those new "rules" is you are supposed to use a TS9 or whatever in front. It's definitely optional and not the only way.

Ive only ever known these or any of the others to add gain.

When I use my tubescreamer-like pedals it's more of a tone shaper. I rarely use much gain at all and I always end up turning it back down on the amp to compensate. The extreme EQ effect (pulling lots of lows out and a fairly narrow boost between 800Hz and 2k on the way in) does a thing most metalheads like. (Cramming these frequencies in before the gain sounds dramatically different than boosting them after the gain) It's guitar and amp dependent but if the guitar is muddy, Tubescreamers are a huge help sometimes. YMMV.

I refuse to subscribe to the idea that all metal guitars should sound identical which makes WAYYYYY out on the fringe in metal guitar land so I don't really see a Tubescreamer is something to seek out or something to avoid. It's a personal choice and it's a sound you can always instantly recognize if you are used to it....in most caess.

I tried to mix different amps like you said -the engl and the peavey 6505- but they are so different and not good results came out of it.

Usually, the issue is they aren't different enough. I'm still waiting for that day when one amp sounds great but blending two amps sound MEGA GREAT. I'm aware of the concept of why this should sound "bigger", but haven't pulled it off in real life yet with any real satisfaction.

I just listened to the tone. It's radically different than that of your other thread, but equally good to me. Again, if the music makes me headbang, done. Move on. I don't understand taking tone past the threshold for musical effectiveness. I'm sure there is some guy somewhere he has the greatest guitar tone ever and is making shitty music that no one likes. He probably has 4 plays on Youtube or something. I wouldn't trade places with that guy.

Brnadon

[willj]

I'm sure there is some guy somewhere he has the greatest guitar tone ever and is making shitty music that no one likes. He probably has 4 plays on Youtube or something.

I guess im busted.

Might create a bit of a new sound out of your amp, but wont really improve on what you currently have.

Brando - just wondered if you thought this is accurate? I too get tone envy and have looked into these pedals in the past but have taken this stance with anything ive tried so far.

[Guitarfreak]

Pretty much everything I could say has been said already, Brandon and Will know their metal guitars. I really like using different gear L and R, but it's a touchy subject because they need to be just the right amount of difference and not too much or too little. Swapping pieces or gear typically works very well with this, while using different post-EQ L and R typically does not. I agree with Brandon when he said that metal guitar has a lot of rules to it, it definitely does, but the best thing you could do is keep trying and experimenting, because in doing so you will find your own tone.

On the subject of the clip, I actually liked the Engl tone in your previous thread better than this one. The old one has a nice cut to it while the new clip sounds blanketed. I think that with some light mix EQ that first tone would be fine in a mix. I am one of those guys who advocates the use of a Tubescreamer or similar device, choose your color. It really tightens up a tube amp and puts the guitar in the mix right where it should be.

[willj]

Pretty much everything I could say has been said already, Brandon and Will know their metal guitars. I really like using different gear L and R, but it's a touchy subject because they need to be just the right amount of difference and not too much or too little. Swapping pieces or gear typically works very well with this, while using different post-EQ L and R typically does not. I agree with Brandon when he said that metal guitar has a lot of rules to it, it definitely does, but the best thing you could do is keep trying and experimenting, because in doing so you will find your own tone.
On the subject of the clip, I actually liked the Engl tone in your previous thread better than this one. The old one has a nice cut to it while the new clip sounds blanketed. I think that with some light mix EQ that first tone would be fine in a mix. I am one of those guys who advocates the use of a Tubescreamer or similar device, choose your color. It really tightens up a tube amp and puts the guitar in the mix right where it should be.

Man you always know just the right thing to say to get me thinkin about that tube screamer biz again. We'll have to conduct some tests someday i get time and energy. No doubt i trust your word, but i just havent got that "yeah" moment with the few ive tried.

I forget what its called, but i guess theres a newish pedal out that is like Van Halens tone in a stomp box. IF thats what ya want i guess it could be a lil fun. I know its red and about $300. Thats about all i can recall.

[Guitarfreak]

Man you always know just the right thing to say to get me thinkin about that tube screamer biz again. We'll have to conduct some tests someday i get time and energy. No doubt i trust your word, but i just havent got that "yeah" moment with the few ive tried.

I forget what its called, but i guess theres a newish pedal out that is like Van Halens tone in a stomp box. IF thats what ya want i guess it could be a lil fun. I know its red and about $300. Thats about all i can recall.

I was thinking about this earlier today (isn't that scary) but you and I have a similar conundrum when it comes to tone and the gear that made it. I love the tone of the EMG 81 pickup in a metal mix, whenever I hear a metal recording that features that pickup I throw up the horns and mosh. Anytime I try and play a guitar with an EMG 81 in it, I usually end up putting it down within 5 minutes and going back to my passive pickup guitar. It's the same with you and overdrive pedals I think. I am sure that you listen to lots of recordings which used overdrives, but you just don't like the sound when you are jamming out.

For what it's worth, I did a recent shootout where one of the reamps didn't have an overdrive of any type before the amp. The pickup was an EMG though, and some people think that these pickups are tighter in and of themselves than passives are. So in this instance, the overdrive isn't as much "necessary" as it is just a different flavor. Listen to the palm mutes at :22s for the most obvious difference between tracks.

[YogSogoth]

Thanks guys for the input.
The thing is I listen to music and specialy metal for many many years since i was 10 and never was thinking about the guitar tone per se.My focus was always on the music.now that I'm trying to find My sound I'm wandering about those Lps that I used to listen for endless hours and when I go back and shift my attention to the guitar sound I find all kind of "flaws" (maybe that's the beaty of it-perfection would be boring I guess).By flaws I mean how I would like the sound to be based on my tastes.The only guitar sound that I find to be near perfect is the one in machine head's latest album Unto the Locust.But that's what you get in a multi million dollar studio like Jingletown Studios.But despite that I would never imagine slayer recording with a sound like that.It wouldn't be slayer.
It's all subjective I guess.

On the subject of the clip, I actually liked the Engl tone in your previous thread better than this one

I don't argue with that but my concern was that it didn't feel quite right with that kind of riff.The new sound is more "thrasy" I think.

[rook2c4]

There is no such thing as "the perfect tone"... it's an ancient myth.

[willj]

whenever I hear a metal recording that features that pickup I throw up the horns and mosh. Anytime I try and play a guitar with an EMG 81 in it, I usually end up putting it down within 5 minutes

Aint that some shit right there! Youd think a person would like what they like.

With the clips. yeah there is a difference, but only something that would make me worry more about how the guitar feels in my hands. When i hear these clips and the differences are THAT small, a person almost needs to hear the rest of the instruments involved, to make a call.

On the subject of the clip, I actually liked the Engl tone in your previous thread better than this one

I'll have to find that one. Man freak, we've been down this road a few times eh?!

There is no such thing as "the perfect tone"... it's an ancient myth.

How bout optimal?? I too have been guilty of overly persuing, but i think we have an a perfect tone for the gear we own.

[Guitarfreak]

Man freak, we've been down this road a few times eh?!

Definitely. The great thing is that everyone has their own idea of what constitutes good guitar tones, and just because somebody disagrees with me or anybody else, doesn't make them any more wrong or right.