Trouble with Brickwall limiter!

[adgemstudios]

Hey!
Im having some trouble making my mixes louder.

At the moment, im compressing the individual drum tracks, I have them sent to drum bus which im also compressing knocking off a few db's.

I also slightly compress bass and vocals, and leave guitars uncompressed.

I mix into a multiband compressor.

Everythings sounding fine, but when I use a brickwall limiter on the finished mix, everything appears louder, but the snare seems to just die.

Iv also noticed it brings out the reverb alot more on the individual tracks.

Whatever I do i cant see to get the snare to come up with everything else.
Could there be too much compression?


Cheers x

[Bigduggieface]

Everythings sounding fine, but when I use a brickwall limiter on the finished mix, everything appears louder, but the snare seems to just die.

Iv also noticed it brings out the reverb alot more on the individual tracks.

A limiter is designed to crush any peaks in your audio waveform. Every db of peak reduction of loud signals equates to a db of volume increase of quieter signals.

In other words, you would use a limiter (aka a high-ratio, fast attack compressor) to make the loud parts quieter and the soft parts louder. This is exactly what you describe above.

The limiter, with its fast attack and ruthless, brickwall threshold is killing the snare transients because your snare is a relatively loud component of your mix. The loud snare peaks are being squashed and subsequently, the quieter reverb trails are more apparent.

You might try a remix with this in mind. Or, on the other hand, try less aggressive settings with your limiter. It is very easy to overdo it with digital limiters.

I think you now know that there can be TOO MUCH of a good thing.

[mindundermatter]

+1 to Bigduggieface. Listen to the man.

At the moment, im compressing the individual drum tracks, I have them sent to drum bus which im also compressing knocking off a few db's.

Try doing parallel compression by using a second drum buss instead. Just duplicate your drum buss and apply your compression settings to it and keep the other one uncompressed. This way, you still have the dry drums whose transients won't be affected when that killer compression kicks in.

I mix into a multiband compressor.

Everythings sounding fine, but when I use a brickwall limiter on the finished mix, everything appears louder, but the snare seems to just die.

Why are you using a compressor AND a brickwall limiter?

Could there be too much compression?

My previous question suggests the answer to this.

[mindundermatter]

Im having some trouble making my mixes louder.

I'm concerned that your intentions are misplaced. You should want your mixes to be better not louder. I understand if you want your mixes to be at regular CD volume, but understand this: a bad mix that is louder will never be as good as a good mix that is quieter. What it WILL do is emphasize how bad it is.

[paul999]

To add to the good advise of the above members. When I am "getting a mix loud" it is a matter of a little, a little, a little. Transients are like little gems that must be protected. Keep in mind the cheaper the compressor the less you can use before your mix disintegrates. I am lucky enough to have 2 good mastering compressor/limiters. At the point that I have a good mix I use my manley variable-mu with a slow relase time and compression (very gentle and smooth) setting instead of limiting and take no more than 2db off the top. The attack setting really depends on how hot the transients are. I usually try to keep the transients sounding like the mix rather than try and get them more aggressive. Next I put it into my waves maxxbcl and may only use the limiter. I increase the gain until I hear detrimental effects to the mix and then back off until it sounds good again. I may go through this as many as 5 times to get things loud enough.
The next time I go through this I may use the manley to shape the transient. I would set it to limiter(it is tube so it is not a brick wall). I may have the release slow or fast depending if the transient needs to be more or less aggressive. I will only take it 1 or 1.5 db's. then through the brick wall limiter again.

When I used UAD compressors I would lose the stereo image easily and could not get recordings nearly as "loud".

P.S. My spell check seems to be turned off and I am not sure how to turn it back on. Sorry about my self checking.

[garageband]

The advice given by Mind is right on the money.

everything appears louder, but the snare seems to just die.

This means the mix itself is broken. You need to go into the mix and fix the snare sound. It's all transient and no meat. People argue all the time about "not compressing anything on the way in". Nonsense. If you're gonna compress it anyway, do it first so you don't have these mix-ruining surprises later.

I mix into a multiband compressor.

This is an insanely aggressive mastering tool. You are much more likely to damage the project by its unwitting use than improve your situation. Get your mix so it doesn't need it. It's very tempting to look at your plug-in list and instantiate stuff just because you have it or heard of someone using it.

[brandondrury]

I'm with Garageband on this one.

This is the classic case of relying on peak level for your snare sounds. Those days are over. Dire Straits could do that in 1986. Nickelback is not doing that. PERIOD.

I tackle this concept in about as great of detail as I can in Killer Home Recording. The mega mega goal is to have it out the first week of June. I estimate I'm about 60 hours away from having it finished (and I have vacation next week).

I'm concerned that your intentions are misplaced. You should want your mixes to be better not louder.

You can want whatever you want, but I guarantee you that if you have clients they DEFINITELY want it loud even if this comes at a cost us nerdy audio types.

I mix into a multiband compressor.

This is an insanely aggressive mastering tool

Agreed. With a handful of exceptions I think the multi-band compressor is just a big damn trap. It causes as many problems as it fixes (sometimes more). Mixing life has been much better since I've come to understand that the multiband compressor is a cheating whore than can't be trusted.

When I used UAD compressors I would lose the stereo image easily and could not get recordings nearly as "loud".

Interesting! One of these years I'd like to have a hardware 2bus (maybe even a summing box...MAYBE). I'll add the fancy stereo compressor to the "to-try" list!

Brandon

[shackman]

I'm concerned that your intentions are misplaced. You should want your mixes to be better not louder.

HERE HERE to that!!!!

[adgemstudios]

I'm concerned that your intentions are misplaced. You should want your mixes to be better not louder.

This made me laugh. Obviously from my perspective I want my mixes to be better. From the bands perspective they want it LOUD. Im in a band myself so I completely understand the need for loud mixes.


As much as it kills the dynamics, and as much as I hate to say it, 99% of bands in the rock music genre will see quiet mixes as being "weak".
So as much as you bash on about "better and not louder", the bands you record are still going to want a loud mix because they all want to sound as loud as all the other bands. Which takes me back to my thread.

Some of you say dont mix into a multiband compressor. Should I just be mixing into a normal compressor instead?

I'll definately try paralell compression on the drum bus, although im already using paralell compression on the snare, but ill give it a whirl and let you know how it goes.

One of you asked why I was using a compressor and a limiter.
Well i mix into the compressor the make things more smooth.
Ill then apply the brickwall to bring up the levels and make small adjustments to my mix.

If this is wrong way to get the mixes loud then please let me know.

Thanks for everyones help. Really appreciated.
x

[Audio~Geek]

if you want your mix louder turn up your speakers!

A very simple concept.
Loudness is for Mastering.

A MIX should have 6-12dB of headroom.

Dynamic mixes are not weak.


A mix and what goes on the cd are very different. Nothing wrong with wanting a loud final product.

Also, if your master limiter is destroying your mix sonically, either it's not a very good one, or you are using it incorrectly.

[brandondrury]

Should I just be mixing into a normal compressor instead?

Just yesterday I spent an hour playing with various compressors on the 2bus. I didn't feel like I gained anything from any of them. Lately I've just been using an L2 and calling it a day.

I'll definately try paralell compression on the drum bus, although im already using paralell compression on the snare, but ill give it a whirl and let you know how it goes.

I've had good luck with 2 parallel comp busses. One for attack and one set with a 0ms attack for maximum sustain. The latter is essential for modern rock / metal.

Well i mix into the compressor the make things more smooth.
Ill then apply the brickwall to bring up the levels and make small adjustments to my mix.

If this is wrong way to get the mixes loud then please let me know.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "wrong". However, if you aren't happy with your results you need to rethink your methods.

if you want your mix louder turn up your speakers!

That's not a loud mix. That's a loud stereo.

Loudness is for Mastering.

I couldn't disagree more. Why? Because I've sent mixes that I thought were good to mastering shops telling them the band wants it modern and they came back with zero snare drum. This was four years ago. It was a huge lesson for me on the overemphasis on pro mastering, the necessity to not rely on peak level for drum sounds as a crutch, and that a mix should sound finished on the way in.

On a good day I only knock 2-3dB off my 2bus with a Waves L2 and my mixes are at modern levels.

Dynamic mixes are not weak.

I agree, but songs that have only basic volume (you typical modern rock chorus) should be thick and loud. A lack of density when on 10 is entirely different than a lack of dynamics.

Also, if your master limiter is destroying your mix sonically, either it's not a very good one, or you are using it incorrectly.

I don't agree. 9 times out of 10 I'd say the cause is the mix before it even gets to the limiter. I know. I've been there.


Brandon

[adgemstudios]

Iv been trying some different techniques out, and im having a problem!
When im playing back in cubase, everything sounds fine.

Im then exporting my mix so its peaking at -0.1 which sounds fine played back.

When I listen back to the mp3, it feels like its pulsing, but doesnt sound like it when playing back in cubase. Could I be setting something wrong?

I also read maybe multiband compression on the 2bus may not be the best option so I want to try out a normal compressor and see how it affects the mix.

If im exporting my mix at -0.1, what threshold should I be using?
Is it just to taste?
With a fairly slow attack and release time?

[paul999]

Listen in headphones to see if you hear the breathing in cubase. The mp3 compressed file may just be exaggerating what is already there especially if you are still using that multi-band comp. Try also burning it as a wave file to CD and play it other places to see if you still hear it breathe. I have been unpleasently surprised with this before to.

Cheers.

[garageband]

The mp3 compressed file may just be exaggerating what is already there

This is majorly hip advice. A good analog (now a hair passé) is that a half-tone print will really show how solid or lame a photograph actually is. Have a look at pictures in a small-time local paper and cogitate on this principle.

[adgemstudios]

Wicked thanks!
Ill definately try using headphones to check this.
Im still not sure how to set the threshold.
Something thats really been buggin me.
If im exporting at -0.1 what should I be using?
Is there a point which is considered "too much" or "too little"?

[paul999]

Wicked thanks!
Ill definately try using headphones to check this.
Im still not sure how to set the threshold.
Something thats really been buggin me.
If im exporting at -0.1 what should I be using?
Is there a point which is considered "too much" or "too little"?

"This is majorly hip advise" I feel cooler already thanks Garageband.

I don't know what you don't understand about threshold. Do you not know what it does? Please clarify.

Exporting at -0.1 I don't find a problem with this but my waves maxxbcl manual recommends -0.3 .

Is there a point where what is considered too much or too little?

[adgemstudios]

Sorry, I should really clarify what im saying.
I know that the threshold is the the point where the signal starts being compressed.

For the 2bus, if im exporting at -0.1, at what point should the signal start being compressed.
Is there a point that is considered too much or too little compression on the 2bus.

For example, when im exporting at -0.1 and my threshold for the compressor is -10 dbs, when the signal is over -10, the compression will kick in.
At what point is too much or too little?

[shackman]

Ears - the best kit you've got. I don't THINK anyone has written a definitive guide on what thereshold for what max peak. There are too many variable within every single song.

The right threshold, in my humble opinion is the one that makes the song soun d the way you - or your client - want it to. And that means I might choose one threshold when you might choose another. And BOTH are the RIGHT one.

Hiope that makes sense.

[adgemstudios]

Have a listen.
Maybe its just my ears are absolutely tired of listening to it, but im sure theres a weird pumping sound.

Would be cool to get some feedback.
Maybe this should be in the "bash" section.

Cheers

[mindundermatter]

There definitely is some pumping going on there. It could be a number of things. It could be drum compression causing them to stick out and everything else go away. It could be low frequencies driving a multi-band compressor nuts. Who knows? But it's there, and luckily you heard it. Now you just have to find the culprit.

[adgemstudios]

I thought so.
I took off the compressor off the 2bus n just used a limiter.
I also lowered the ratios on the compressor on the drum bus. That helped alot, but as you can hear it's still doing it. Although it's a hell of alot better than it was. Can you put your finger on which instrument it is?

[garageband]

Look through the track waveforms for the offender. The nice part of being about to look at your music.

[adgemstudios]

I cant really tell which instrument it is.
And I wouldnt know what to look for in the waves.

If anyone can gimmie some advice on the compression and how to stop the pumping noise that would be wicked.

[mindundermatter]

I can't say 100%, but my best guess is kick, snare, and bass (or any combination thereof).

[adgemstudios]

I think i may have solved that pumping problem.
Theres a few odd vocals on here, some ideas that we were playing around with, maybe abit on the loud side too.