So what exactly do you mean by 'in' or 'out' of tune? Is it that straight forward?

[Emma]

Is being ‘in tune’ a mathematical construct or a conceptual notion?

There has been quite a bit of talk lately about people being out of tune and it’s got me to thinking about it... and realising that there are quite a few elements at play here.

Is a note, one discrete entity? A finite specific wave pattern? Or is it in fact much more than the sum of its parts?

I’m thinking about it in particular as I’m struggling to learn the cello. It has no frets and for the first few weeks, the sounds I was making, caused me significant physical pain and discomfort. Now I’m starting to record it and using the magical variaudio to tweak the tuning, I’m finding that I’m kinda fascinated by the sound waves and pitch variations within a note. And when I w@rm up with some vibrato, hey... the wriggly pitch line moves around even more!! But I really like elements of that w@rm rolling sound...

I’m not disputing that many people appear unable to ‘hold a tune’... and often it is very challenging to alert them to the fact – often, in daily life, it simply doesn’t matter.
Really, I’m just wanting to explore the conceptual notion of what is ‘in tune’???
Does it come from the notes being ‘within’ a tune?

There seems to be the suggestion that tuning is a black and white issue... a note is ‘in’ or it is ‘out’...
What do you think?

[willj]

Tuning itself is a black and white issue ,but its also a relative one. There are many different tunings, and inside those tunings or boundaries, the notes have a relation to one another. A poor relation would be out of tune, and a "proper" relation would be considered in tune.

So you are either in tune or you are out of tune. There are varying degrees of being out of tune, but no variation of being in tune.

Atleast this is the way i am computing the answer to your question. It feels like common sense, but i dont really have anything to back it up. Just thinking outloud i guess.



Good question. Maybe like discussing god.

[aj113]

.....
There seems to be the suggestion that tuning is a black and white issue... a note is ‘in’ or it is ‘out’...
What do you think?

I think that something is either in tune or it isn't. I'm not sure that's even debateable.

[Bigduggieface]

There is a famous quote about pornography that goes like this: "I can't describe pornography, but I know it when I see it."

Pitch intonation is a lot like that. "I know it when I hear it."

Willj seems to have hit it on the head when he said that "the notes have a relation to one another. A poor relation would be out of tune, and a "proper" relation would be considered in tune."

This is a very subjective topic indeed. Much like asking how much hot sauce is too much in the chili, or how much black to use in your oil painting. Depends upon who you ask. However, I would argue that each of our personal tastes fall along a bell curve. Most of us can tolerate some pitchiness and dissonance to some extent, but there are aesthetic limits as to how much.

Most of us in the west are comfortable with the diatonic temperament tuning that we have been accustomed to from birth. When we hear pitches that fall between half-step pitches or sometimes outside of the diatonic scale, it may sound 'out' or 'off'. Whether it is unattractive or not to the listener is subjective.

[XunZ]

Yep, relative is a good word here.

The strings on a cello, guitar or piano (or whatever) may be all in tune with the other strings on the instrument.. Allowing a beautiful solo piece to be played..
But out of tune with the bassist (who knows better and may be tuned to absolute pitch as you would read on a tuner) if the bass tunes down from the tuner's pitch to the pitch of the earlier instrument, they will both be 'in tune' with each other relatively and sound good together!

But to muddy the water further
tuning isn't all about 1trick tuners. tuning is an art.. Look into piano tuning for example.
Also check out exotic tuning.

Also to think about, choice of tuning pitch will vary the instruments sound texture for better or for worse.

[garageband]

Is being ‘in tune’ a mathematical construct or a conceptual notion?

How about a conceptual manipulation of a mathematical construct? That's the square I'm putting my money on.

[chckn8r]

I think that something is either in tune or it isn't. I'm not sure that's even debateable.

I think being in tune or not in tune can be a grey area. Having things be perfectly in tune got us the T-Pain effect - we have seen how popular that became...

The equal tempered scale that we use today is in of itself a compromised tuning system. Besides the octave, everything else is actually a few cents off what it "should" be ("should" meaning based upon the overtone series). It's a logarithmic scale where the frequency ratio between two adjacent notes is based on the formula: 2 (to the power of) 1/12. This table shows how the tuning scale we use now differs from the "true" tuning.

Pythagorean couldn't understand why musical scales wouldn't adhere to mathematical principles - pythagorean and "just" tuning is figuring out tuning based upon the overtone series - applying mathematical ratios to figure out the frequencies of different notes of the scale. If you keep halving the octave to get the fifth - half that octave to get that fifth, and so on through the twelve tones, you'll never arrive back at the original frequency (or integer multiple of it).

Pianos and other wire-based keyboard instruments employ a "stretched" tuning where the octaves are tuned slightly farther apart than 2:1. The multiple strings for each note are tuned ever so slightly off to create the characteristic chorus effect (mandolins and 12-string guitars do this as well).

Emma's case in point - learning a string instrument demonstrates how tuning is a relative, "sounds close enough" phenomenon rather than exact and precise one. A string section, in of itself creates a "halo", chorusing effect in and around the desired frequency rather than a focused pitch.

A singer can (and will) sing off the "exact" pitch - either their timbre or vibrato will mask the discrepency and you probably won't even notice it.

Loudness of the performance will also affect how you perceive something to be "in tune". If you've ever been to a pumping rock concert and thought that the band "nailed" it, just listen to the recording the next day: it'll probably sound awful!

All this being said, there will come a point where an instrumentalist / vocalist being off pitch will become noticeable. That is what is subjective - it's also another facet of what makes music interesting to listen to.

Cheers, D

[garww]

If a fretted instrument has a intonation problem with regular tuning, it might work better out of tune. In relation to other instruments, it's a matter of if they can match the harmonic signature in some way. There are fretted instruments where you can move(slide them) the frets while you are playing to accomodate a wide range of musical encounters, or intruments where drone strings are always flat. The mechanical measurement of a note is pretty absolute - do ra, mi, etc.. , but so are all the other frequencies

[garageband]

Pianos and other wire-based keyboard instruments employ a "stretched" tuning where the octaves are tuned slightly farther apart than 2:1. The multiple strings for each note are tuned ever so slightly off to create the characteristic chorus effect

What??? If a piano tuner did this to one of my machines, I'd kill him. Mando strings should be so in-tune as to literally disappear into one another, sonically.

The point of stretching intervals and adjusted tunings is to accommodate the playing of chromatic music.

[chckn8r]

What??? If a piano tuner did this to one of my machines, I'd kill him. Mando strings should be so in-tune as to literally disappear into one another, sonically.

The point of stretching intervals and adjusted tunings is to accommodate the playing of chromatic music.

Dude, it's part of standard piano tuning: Piano tuning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A piano would sound horrible without it.

If you watch a piano tuner work, they're never JUST using a tuner to dial it in, they're making judgement calls on the relationship of the entire instrument - it ends up being "stretched tuning" where they try and get rid of inharmonicity in all the vibrating elements of the instrument.

Yes, equal temperment came about to accomodate chromatic music, but that's different from stretched tuning in pianos.

Yes, the goal of the tuner is to get all three/two strings to sound virtually identical, but there's always going to be something imperfect about the tuning (it's a mechanical beast) - that's going to create a chorus effect no matter what. It may be slight, but it'll definitely be noticeable if it wasn't there.

[garageband]

Dude, it's part of standard piano tuning

Dude, it is not part of tuning procedure to tune of each string on a given note differently. That's my argument with what you said. Stretching the octaves is absolutely related to issues of chromatic disagreement with strict harmonic ratios.

On three-string piano notes, they are not purposely untuned from one another unless you'd like that wonderful old Shakey's Olde Time barrel house upright sound. They are unisons and should be tuned accordingly.

[chckn8r]

Dude, it is not part of tuning procedure to tune of each string on a given note differently. That's my argument with what you said. Stretching the octaves is absolutely related to issues of chromatic disagreement with strict harmonic ratios.

On three-string piano notes, they are not purposely untuned from one another unless you'd like that wonderful old Shakey's Olde Time barrel house upright sound. They are unisons and should be tuned accordingly.

GB - appologies. My kids are throwing around "dude" all the time and I got into the spirit - was not meant in a mean-spirited manner. Yes, I think we mis-understood one-another.

I'm saying that for the three/two note keys, the slight differences is not intentional (yes the goal is to get all the strings to vibrate as identically as possible), but an inevitable side-effect (slight imperfections/length/thickness/etc) that's only going to slip further from identical frequencies over time / with every hit.

Cheers! D

[Stan_Halen]

I think being in tune or not in tune can be a grey area. Having things be perfectly in tune got us the T-Pain effect - we have seen how popular that became...

JFTR: The T-Pain effect is created by using Auto-Tune software set to "relaxed Tracking" (it will jump notes if pitch varies significantly) and "fast Retune" (note fix rate) for the pitch-correction. My understanding of how this works is the software is constantly and frantically trying to fix something that is usually sung poorly or the tuning scale is purposefully set different than what is being sung, so the software is essentially confused and trying to figure things out. While it may reach perfect tune momentarily, the effect you hear is the software "chasing it's tail" which gives the blippy robot sounding effect. That's because T-Pain chose to use the software for a purpose completely opposite for what it was designed for (smooth slight corrections to fairly well sung music).

[garageband]

That's because T-Pain chose to use the software for a purpose completely opposite for what it was designed for (smooth slight corrections to fairly well sung music).

Anyone can say what they want - he's really good at playing that thing.

[Emma]

Woo.. interesting thoughts thanks..

Tuning itself is a black and white issue ,but its also a relative one

I'm thinking 'relative' is a key thing... can a note in isolation be offkey? Or only in context..?

I think that something is either in tune or it isn't. I'm not sure that's even debateable.

chuckle... it does seem to be debateable

Most of us in the west are comfortable with the diatonic temperament tuning that we have been accustomed to from birth. When we hear pitches that fall between half-step pitches or sometimes outside of the diatonic scale, it may sound 'out' or 'off'

I'm interested in the cultural element here...
There is a clear tendency to regard our own individual musical enculturation as the benchmark by which all things are measured..

Emma's case in point - learning a string instrument demonstrates how tuning is a relative, "sounds close enough" phenomenon rather than exact and precise one. A string section, in of itself creates a "halo", chorusing effect in and around the desired frequency rather than a focused pitch.

Really liked this image... the more I think about it, the more I struggle with the concept of getting a cello REALLY in tune, as an acoustic instrument, played with squishy fingers exerting variable pressure with a trembling fluctuation..
And yet, I'm thinking that it is the very bendiness of the pitch that gives the extra tonal quality unavailable through a vst replica. Love the 'halo' image with string sound, it is a particular richness. Ahh, is that a harmonic richness? urk

A singer can (and will) sing off the "exact" pitch - either their timbre or vibrato will mask the discrepency and you probably won't even notice it.

It's only now that I'm recording myself regularly, I'm realizing how much I weave in and around pitch on an intuitive level.. rising up and bending down, but it is that unspoken rule of how far is too far?

I had the piano tuner in last week and was doing other things while he tuned.. actually, I can't do much while he is here as I find my ears are fixated on the dissonance and the resolution. As long as I have him come regularly, it's not a big deal, but when he once had to do a major pitch shift, it was a very horrid thing for me to hear.

[XunZ]

Tuning itself is a black and white issue ,but its also a relative one.

Like a piano approaching the speed of light.

As long as I have him come regularly, it's not a big deal

No comment.

[jimsies]

GB and Chckn8r you need to check this out!!

I don't want to get into the 'piano tuning' debate here but I've studied Charles Ives a bit at Uni (particularly the band music) and during that I came across this little number. It will make your ears bleed (figuratively, of course!!)

Charles Ives: 3 Quarter-Tone Pieces (1924) - I. Largo - YouTube

[Emma]

No comment.

[blush]
[kicks self for getting carried away and forgetting where she was raving]

[cakewalkgg]

The question in the OP kind of requires context. Being "in tune" is a little to general. Instrument tuning is pretty matter of fact. "Playing" in tune is a different story, especially with vocals or with instruments that you directly affect the pitch with your body in a more analogous fashion (ie guitar, violin, trombone etc). A guitarist may have a perfectly tuned and intonated instrument but is fretting semi disonnent chords and slightly bending the strings or pressing so hard that the pitch is raised as the string is depressed near a fret, and causes it to take on an "out of tune sound". This can best be described to me as "warbly" sounding. Heavily distorted guitar sounds disguise some of the note relationships in a chord, but if its "warbly" it still loses the "singing" kind of sound the chords can take in when played well "in tune". Lead guitar and vocals in my opinion have a lot in common with how the pitch and vibrato is played with. This can be very artistic. For example, a heavy vibrato on a note can result in very little of that note being on display but it sounds perfect. I think our minds tend to average (favorably) this when listening and as long as the center of the vibrato is near the intended note.. it sounds in tune. It is actually very very difficult for a "lazer tone" (no vibrato) to sound good because any minute deviation from pitch is much more obvious. Another example that I have began using as a lead guitar player is on selected notes, I will very briefly begin the note with a 1/2 step bend and release down to the note. I find that this sounds even more interesting when the bended note is not in the scale (where the diatonic note would have been a whole step bend). It is "out of tune" but so briefly that it only serves to catch the ear for a moment.

I guess my point here is that as one example... Guitar player A may play the same 5 note phrase with just fretting, bending notes and the result may be just a raspy distorted guitar line that may be interpreted as "out of tune" even though technically it was very close to "in tune". Guitar player B plays the same 5 note line but with a lot of vibrato and intentional quick hitting pitch bendy things (is that a technical term?) can probably even farther away from perfect "in tune" but it is perceived by the listner as not only "in tune", but also "tastier"

I hope the term "tasty" doesn't go the way of w@rm

[cakewalkgg]

So the short answer is to use copious amounts of vibrato and bendy things and make strained (or concerned) faces while you play

[shackman]

Good discussion. So, I agree with AJ that it "is or it isn't".

That said, someone who tries to play a number of the songs I've recorded might have severe difficulties if they try to play along with a guitar tuned perfectly.

The reason is simple. I have, on many occasions, started recording with what I had tried to make a perfectly tuned instrument.

Then, when I come to adding a keyboard or synth or something else which is in tune mathematically (and which would play alongisde a perfectly tuned guitar), I find MY perfect tuning WASN'T.

But I've done so much work onthe track at the stage, I decide to stick with my mistunings and detune synth keys to match.

The result is a song which is "in tune" with itself, but off key when compared to pitch perfect.

So, tuning is relative, but it is not debatable.

[XunZ]

Guitar player B plays the same 5 note line but with a lot of vibrato and intentional quick hitting pitch bendy things (is that a technical term?)

Yes it is. *nods*

Although I wish to officially introduce the term 'ghost glissando'.

Either that or I'm going to trademark it so only i can use it.

Yes, that's what I'll do.

*walks off*

xZ

[garww]

So the short answer is to use copious amounts of vibrato and bendy things and make strained (or concerned) faces while you play

All that is natural with a Sitar : )

[XunZ]

So, tuning is relative, but it is not debatable.

I've found on RR anything is debatable.

With bands, you can record a whole album where the band is a quarter step out (against the tuner.) Or you could have just the guitars have the g string few cents out for artistic effect. Custom nuts change the relative notes. The realities of intonation mean playing the song in the right key, but in a different neck position, alter pitch. Fretting technique changes tuning, with or without galloping, which changes the game.

Intonation technique is a debate in itself (a host of different nut setup etc.) Then there's the potential for microtuning on custom fret setups, or 2 guitar leads setup to chorus live on an doubletrack. Then there's doubletrack effects from variable tapespeed.

Then there are CS80 temperaments that vary with temperature and humidity!.. where's that sitar?

xZ

[aj113]

I think it is pretty much understood and accepted that most note-generating devices including the human voice do not generate pure tones, they generate a multitude of harmonics and resonances. A piano note is comprised of 3 strings. No matter how hard you you try to get them sounding the same you can't, because they are 3 different pieces of wire in 3 different positions on the frame. But this is exactly what makes them sound pleasant - 3 different noise sources all with their own set of individual harmonics and resonances, in tune with each otherThis is exactly why we double-track stuff, to get a similar effect. I don't really think this is what Emma is referring to in the OP. So to get back to the OP:

Really, I’m just wanting to explore the conceptual notion of what is ‘in tune’???
Does it come from the notes being ‘within’ a tune?

For me, there are two types of 'out of tune'.

1. Where an instrument is not in tune with itself. e.g. A guitar where all strings are in tune except the top E. Or a guitar that is in tune near the nut, but not near the 12th fret (intonation and set-up issues). Same with a voice. A guy may start a song off well but when it gets to the higher stuff he starts to sing sharp or flat relative to where he started from.

2. An instrument is audibly dischordant with the rest of the instruments it is accompanying. It may be in tune with itself i.e. NOT like #1 above, but it is not working to the same pitch as the instruments around it.

Both of these come under the heading of 'out of tune' in my book, and this is what I meant when I expressed doubt as to whether it was debateable.

When you get #1 AND #2 together it's time to reach for the Cocodamol.