Slamming A Snare Into The 2bus Brickwall Limiter

**garageband** · 06-16-2012, 11:44 PM

So what you are saying is the unique snare sound must have to do with how it meshes with all the other elements in the mix as it is being nuked which is why you can only achieve it on the 2bus.

I'm not clear that the change in the behavior in the limiter has as much to do with meshing or activity-based interaction. It seems like has to do with providing a "noise floor" that the limiter's detector can't "fall into", altering its treatment of the energy from the transients. It "sees" them differently when they're poking out of the soup. I know that hypothesis was as clear as mud. The good news is it wasn't 14 minutes long.

Really, that was an awesome video to watch. I was glued the whole way though. Thanks, Brandon. Interesting and solid infotainment... Alright, that's crazy: "infotainment" is in the spellcheck. It truly is the End of Days.

**aj113** · 06-17-2012, 01:22 AM

There's no doubt it sounds great, but have you tried actually rendering it? What does the waveform look like? My concern would be that the dynamics of the track as a whole would be under threat.

**jackslab1** · 06-17-2012, 06:33 AM

Cool vid dude. I tell ya it's alot easier to grasp some of these things when you have a video to go with it. Off the subject a bit, how did you get the TTmeter to fit on your screen like that. On mine, the bottom is cut off, and I can't get it to fit. I didn't even know there was another button below the reset one. And my meters don't even look the same. I don't get it. Sorry for the momentary high jack.

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-17-2012, 08:25 AM

It "sees" them differently when they're poking out of the soup.

the unique snare sound must have to do with how it meshes with all the other elements in the mix as it is being nuked

You explained it differently, but it sounds like we're on the same page of reasoning. Isn't the "soup" the other elements of the mix? lol

how did you get the TTmeter to fit on your screen like that.

whats your screen resolution? every plugin has a default resolution, and remains in scale with your display's resolution.. brandon is probably around the 1280 x 1024 range

**garageband** · 06-17-2012, 09:11 AM

I'm trying to figure out a way to make the limiter act that way without the drums being in the soup.

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-17-2012, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by garageband

I'm trying to figure out a way to make the limiter act that way without the drums being in the soup.

Sounds like chicken noodle without the broth to me...:P

**garageband** · 06-17-2012, 10:12 AM

It does? I don't get it.

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-17-2012, 08:59 PM

Sure does, if you follow and stay true to your soup analogies.

**aj113** · 06-18-2012, 04:12 AM

This has raised more questions than answers for me:

OK so it seems to be working with your quick and dirty recording, what about recordings that you have previously made? Have you tried them? Although I have never purposely slammed a snare into a limiter, nevertheless I have had some recordings where the snare is as fat as f*ck even under severe limiting, and this must be due to the other frequencies and dynamics that are going on (or more accurately NOT going on) around it. Conversely I've had recordings where I have had to work my arse off (when limiting) just to keep the snare sounding vaguely like a snare.
What happens if you apply the limiter after the fact? i.e. render the recording before applying the limiter?
The limiter is working realtime - is the look-ahead anything to do with this effect? What if the look-ahead is so low that the limiter algorithms can't actually cope with all the crap you're throwing at it?

Brandon if I were in your shoes I'd be playing about with all settings and scenarios to try and discover what is actually making the difference.

**aj113** · 06-25-2012, 05:26 PM

Just revisited this again, because for me getting a non-mushy snare is the most difficult of tasks when you're limiting to high levels. One thing that occurred to me - have you got one over on the big boys Brandon? I mean, I can't really see Mutt Lange sat there pretend mastering with a limiter on his 2 bus. Presumably the big commercial recordings are mastered "properly" by sending the masters off to a ME, which means the opportunity to slam a snare into a 2-bus limiter is lost.

**aj113** · 06-27-2012, 02:49 AM

OK I tried this in a full blown mix. Different DAW, different plugs. Basically it worked, but there is a price to pay. With the snare taking up that much real estate, something has to give way, so the inevitable pumping/sucking effect comes into play. Not saying it can't be done, but you have to resist the temptation to push that lovely crisp snare up in the mix, because the more it goes up, the more everything else comes down.

**brandondrury** · 06-27-2012, 06:26 AM

, I can't really see Mutt Lange sat there pretend mastering with a limiter on his 2 bus.

I think this is a huge mistake without actually engineering a few albums for the guy.

Assuming certain rules shouldn't be broken because big boys PROBABLY aren't doing them doesn't hold water for me anymore. My new view of the big boy world is most of them are 95% retarded, can't balance a check book (not that I bother), can't operate a microwave, and definitely can't hold their own in a conversation about quantum physics or socioeconomic class wars. In other words, I've chosen to take them all as seriously as I take Tom Cruise's presidential endorsement unless I'm in a position to believe otherwise.

Any little tidbits that are fed to us through the media are distorted to epic proportions in most cases anyway. Few people speak their mind when people are watching. So this comes down to me. If me guessing what big boys are really doing is limiting to my creativity, I need to find a way to ditch that. By viewing them as idiots with creative talent suddenly all things are possible....if those things actually sound good.

I will be the first to admit (and I did in the video) that this is rule breaking. It's rule breaking but I feel there are clues to something bigger.

Presumably the big commercial recordings are mastered "properly" by sending the masters off to a ME, which means the opportunity to slam a snare into a 2-bus limiter is lost.

I wouldn't guess this would be an epic problem to solve. It would require a conversation with the mastering engineer ahead of time and it would also require pulling the gain down on the 2bus to ensure the final render isn't clipped. That brings up bit depth arguments that I don't care about but some may.

With the snare taking up that much real estate, something has to give way, so the inevitable pumping/sucking effect comes into play.

I can do it without any obvious pumping or sucking. That was the whole point to the video, actually .

I believe the pumping is still taking place but it happens too quickly to be audible. The trick absolutely requires a fast compressor on the snare. I'm not sure what the attack time of the UAD La2a is but it's under 10ms. I'd want it reducing 30dB or so. Maybe more. It also requires a super faster release on the brickwall limiter.

With all that said, I'm not sure if the trick is worth dealing with anyway.

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 07-08-2012, 05:56 PM

I ended up sending a parallel compressed snare directly to the master bus to get the snare to pop out in the heavy choruses. I had refused to use sampled to fix any of the drum issues in this mix in order to challenge my skills and it worked out great.

**shackman** · 07-09-2012, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Assuming certain rules shouldn't be broken because big boys PROBABLY aren't doing them doesn't hold water for me anymore. My new view of the big boy world is most of them are 95% retarded, can't balance a check book (not that I bother), can't operate a microwave, and definitely can't hold their own in a conversation about quantum physics or socioeconomic class wars. In other words, I've chosen to take them all as seriously as I take Tom Cruise's presidential endorsement unless I'm in a position to believe otherwise.

Tip my hat, raise my non-alcoholic glass to you! even I couldn't have said it better than that.