Slamming A Snare Into The 2bus Brickwall Limiter

**brandondrury** · 06-14-2012, 05:10 PM

I've been allotting two hours per day to up my electronic production game. I'm attempting to figure out a few fun sounds that clients have asked for.

One of them is this Skrillex/dubstep snare that's chunky as hell without being dull. I heard something similar on a metal recording. I played around with every compressor I've got for a while with most of the samples I have (I don't have a ton of electronic music samples, really.)

I did the usual by smacking the snare hard with (well, I could get that with just about every compressor I've got) with an attack of 10ms-ish and a long release (more like 100-200ms). Then I had to crank it up to ridiculous levels and just pound the crap out of the brickwall limiter. (Something that's usually a no no for me.) I didn't come that close, but it was a start.

I've concluded that abusing the brickwall limiter is a sound of its own and can be used for good when you do this intentionally and are careful of artifacts. I could see quite a few clients LOVING this (metal bands, rock bands, electronic people) and quite a few of my recording peers think it's retarded.

**garageband** · 06-14-2012, 05:34 PM

I've concluded that abusing the brickwall limiter is a sound of its own and can be used for good when you do this intentionally and are careful of artifacts.

I've done this before for Special Sauce on the snare. I'd rather drive over it before it gets to the 2-bus, though. Someone else might get hit by the flying pieces.

**Bigduggieface** · 06-14-2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I've concluded that abusing the brickwall limiter is a sound of its own...

Yeah, and that sound is complete shit!

I'm just kidding.

Of course distortion and manipulation of sound is what we do. There are times that distorted and hyper-limited drums work for a particular song. It's like a spice flavoring. However, it's not a flavor that I find very attractive very often. When it works, its a godsend.

Skrillex has built a dynasty on breaking rules and being completely free and innovative with sounds. I admire the guy and I admire and support his (and anyone else's) freedom to manipulate HIS music however the hell HE wants.

Brickwall limiters as I define them are modern compressors that are capable of infinitely fast attack times and infinitely high compression ratios. One can hit a limiter really hard to cause a particular distortion of the original input signal.

Hopefully we can use this effect in a musical fashion that is not merely a crutch, but a genuine musical effect.

The brickwall limiter is a wonderful tool and I use them every day. It's the word 'abuse' of these tools is where I start to question the validity of the decision to use such an effect in a musical context.

There was a time when engineers and listeners would have been completely shocked by the sound of a distorted guitar amplifier, but that sound has completely been embraced and elaborated upon in modern music. I'm not afraid of manipulating music in any way, as long as it meets its main objective -- making the music connect with the listener in an emotional way.

**garageband** · 06-14-2012, 08:04 PM

I use the UAD one. It has a nice heaviness with a touch of harmonic distortion to it.

**rook2c4** · 06-14-2012, 09:49 PM

I rarely use a limiter directly on drums; only as last resort if standard compression fails to give me the "impact" I'm looking for in the drums in the mix. I find that applying a limiter to drums takes away a bit of the naturalness to the drum sound. For some music that's not much of an issue, although for most of the music I work with, it usually is.

One method that can bring back some of the natural detail to the drum attacks lost by limiting is to apply reverb to the clean (unlimited) drums, send that to a seperate channel, then mix it with the limited drum track. The clean reverb will give the limited drums a hint of the natural dynamics occuring in the attack, but without seriously compromising the desired impact that the limiter is bringing to the mix.

I use this same approach whenever I run drums through a distortion effect. Although with distortion, it's more than just the attacks getting crushed and mangled, so a clean reverb mixed in can make a significant difference.

**shackman** · 06-15-2012, 12:10 AM

Ever tried placing a kick drum sample under each snare hit, losing the attack and .. and

Dunno. That just sounds like the sound you're after, a single hit with all the sdnare's bright but a chunky of THUMP too.

**Jeronimo Mora** · 06-15-2012, 03:50 AM

Have you ever taken a snare and put Cubase's DaTube on it and cranked the bitch? It's like instant beef. I recommend you try it at least once and see if you like it lol.

**aj113** · 06-15-2012, 04:24 AM

Not sure why you're using the 2 bus limiter Brandon. Why not smash the crap out of it using its own insert?

**brandondrury** · 06-15-2012, 10:34 PM

I've done this before for Special Sauce on the snare. I'd rather drive over it before it gets to the 2-bus, though. Someone else might get hit by the flying pieces.

I suspect at this point that the flying pieces may be part of the sound. I may make a video to illustrate what I'm up to so you guys can pick it apart.

I use the UAD one. It has a nice heaviness with a touch of harmonic distortion to it.

The UAD Precision Limiter or the UAD Precision Maximizer?

Not sure why you're using the 2 bus limiter Brandon. Why not smash the crap out of it using its own insert?

I'll have to try again but I couldn't get the same sound on the drum bus.

The site is limping at the moment. I'll go make that video, get it uploading, and then cuss the site some more.

Brandon

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-16-2012, 01:32 AM

You've got to take a look at the snare's levels relative with the other elements of the drum bus. A limiter isnt always the answer to bring it up. Actually, sometimes you need to take everyone ELSE down a few dB in order for that attacking compressor of a snare sound to punch through. It's easy to start raising levels and then hear the snare needs more bite.. only to resort to limiting for that. If you're at that point, you are definitely having a mixing headroom issue at an early stage. Too much attenuation on the snare via limiting will destroy whatever blunt attack you tried adding to it in the first place.

EDIT: If you want lay about 0.5 db of limiting on the snare track alone.. make sure your snare to other drum sounds ratio is where you want it feeding into the drum bus... then apply some limiting on the drum buss... making sure the snare is only triggering 1db or less of attenuation. I would say the solution lies within relative volumes among the rest of the drums and the relationship it has with the other elements of the mix. These minor touches of limiting can push it forward enough but not destroy its transient attack.

as a recap on what bigduggieface said, abuse of limiting will be obvious - it's a matter of do you want it to be obvious or not.

**garageband** · 06-16-2012, 02:14 AM

The limiter. Don't have the maximizer. Next time they have a compressor sale, maybe.

**aj113** · 06-16-2012, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by brandondrury

.....I'll have to try again but I couldn't get the same sound on the drum bus...

Yeah, actually I meant the snare track itself, not the drum bus. I don't use a drum bus myself so it didn't really occur to me to do that.

**aj113** · 06-16-2012, 03:37 AM

Just a point Brandon, not sure what you mean by 'chunky' but it implies dynamics to me, in which case the last thing you would want to be doing is using compressors and limiters to get the sound. When you say 'chunky' I think of big 80's snares that were more like a floor tom with snares on it than a snare itself, in which case it seems that it's more a case of EQ, room reverb etc plus of course, an appropriate source sound.

**brandondrury** · 06-16-2012, 10:53 AM

All of this is going to sound stupid. It is, but it's the only way I've come even close to the ballpark. I did a video, but it's 20 minutes of rambling that I'm not sure is all that value.

There's not a good adjective (as usual) to describe the sound I'm talking about. (Maybe I should upload the video.).

Here's what I've noticed.

1) I'm using the UAD LA-2A on the snare track. It must be a sample as this would never work with bleed. I have the reduction all the way up and I'm using a lot of makeup gain. This gives a ton of attack in that under 10ms kind of way and reduces everything else significantly. The release time has to be a good 100ms or more.

2) On the 2bus I'm seeing the brickwall limiter in Ozone is knocking off 10dB from that snare. Trying to spread that limiting/reduction out by limiting the drum bus was not effective. It brought in the "mush" thing that usually happens when using a brickwall limiter on the 2bus. Limiting the actual snare wasn't effective either. Same problem.

All this discussion is vague. I guess I should just upload that damn video.

If you guys get bored you can just close it out.

Brandon

**aj113** · 06-16-2012, 11:16 AM

Well we are to nail some sounds. Why don't you post some examples of the sounds you want to achieve and let the good folks of RR have a go at achieving them?

**shackman** · 06-16-2012, 11:33 AM

Post the video big boy.

And AJ I bash with AKG 77 too. Strangely similar world!

**aj113** · 06-16-2012, 11:43 AM

It's a Brit thing.....

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-16-2012, 12:24 PM

The release time has to be a good 100ms or more.

Right, otherwise if the natural decay of the snare exceeds your release levels, you may encounter a sort of "pre delay" effect on the snares natural resonance. That actually doesn't sound bad if that's the sound your going for... I think I'll have to try purposely adjusting the release so some decay pops back up and see how it compares to a traditional reverb predelay setting. If I layer a room mic snare sample in a real live room that's of decent size - I'll get that longer high end decay I could work with. Half of this was sort of off topic but the idea just came to me.

On the 2bus I'm seeing the brickwall limiter in Ozone is knocking off 10dB from that snare.Trying to spread that limiting/reduction out by limiting the drum bus was not effective.

10db, wow. You're trying to make the snare have more attack but at the same time your shattering it with instant reduction? You could always ease in a little tube overdrive or something on the snare to make it more noticeable.. When I get to a point where it seems nothing I do gets it out there, I take off the comps and limiters and reset all my drum levels and start finding other ways for that attack to come through without leveling off the transients so harshly. I've noticed that if I stop worrying about slamming everything to a ceiling while mixing and worry about getting the relative volumes and balance right, I can sprinkle on that quick attack compression and limiting afterwards... I found I was trying to get a "mastered" drum sound as I was mixing; bad move. That's a mistake many make and it's subconscious most of the time.

EDIT: I can attest to that from hours of pacing back and forth, standing up, sitting down, turning around, leaving the room, coming back, eating, coming back, listening to something else, slamming my head against my desk, etc.

**aj113** · 06-16-2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by IMF OnSite Recording

Right, otherwise if the natural decay of the snare exceeds your release levels, you may encounter a sort of "pre delay" effect on the snares natural resonance. That actually doesn't sound bad if that's the sound your going for.......

And if it's not the sound you're going for, couldn't you gate the snare to the same release level?

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-16-2012, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by aj113

And if it's not the sound you're going for, couldn't you gate the snare to the same release level?

Absolutely; I've used gates a lot if I like the front end attack of a sample but need to adjust the decay. A transient shaper can work fine for this too. Making sure its the right sample that has some or most of the natural attack you are looking for already is a big plus. Decay is easily manipulated. I would rather not try to force too much attack out of a "dull" sample.

**brandondrury** · 06-16-2012, 03:11 PM

10db, wow. You're trying to make the snare have more attack but at the same time your shattering it with instant reduction?

Dumb, isn't it! I have no explanation, but this appears the only way to get this sound. I've tried all other options. It's clear to me that the sound is directly caused by overloading this super fast spike into the brickwall limiter.

You could always ease in a little tube overdrive or something on the snare to make it more noticeable..

That would be a different sound than this. (Not necessarily a bad tool to have in the toolbox, though.)

In the past, using overdrive and distortion brings out interesting harmonics, but also brings out that "mushiness"....much like if sending too loud of snare into a brickwall limiter without reducing the sustain first..

And if it's not the sound you're going for, couldn't you gate the snare to the same release level?

I haven't tried a gate yet, but maybe. Then again, the compressor works so well for this that it I don't have a huge motivation to try other than curiosity.

In theory it should be very similar depending on the envelope of the gate.

My video is uploading now. It says 3 hours to go.

**aj113** · 06-16-2012, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by brandondrury

....In theory it should be very similar depending on the envelope of the gate....

In theory you should be able to replicate the effect using a channel insert, but meanwhile, back in the real world....

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-16-2012, 08:39 PM

Dumb, isn't it! I have no explanation, but this appears the only way to get this sound. I've tried all other options. It's clear to me that the sound is directly caused by overloading this super fast spike into the brickwall limiter.

Logically "Dumb", in meter-land, Yes... but we are dealing with a world where dumb can equal genius. That sample, that attack, that reduction = a sound that only that sample, that attack, and that reduction can make! Nothing is possibly wrong when each time you do it, it becomes a new creation.

**brandondrury** · 06-16-2012, 10:01 PM

Okay, here's what I'm up to. 10db Snare Overload Into 2bus Brickwall LImite: Metal and Dubstep Snare Mixing

we are dealing with a world where dumb can equal genius.

I'm glad there's a way I can sneak in on the back door of this one because I don't see them letting me in through the front.

Brandon

**IMF OnSite Recording** · 06-16-2012, 10:56 PM

Aha!

So what you are saying is the unique snare sound must have to do with how it meshes with all the other elements in the mix as it is being nuked which is why you can only achieve it on the 2bus.

After visually seeing what you were doing with your levels and such, I now realize that I sometimes make my drums purposely too loud just so I could slam them in the 2bus for a unique effect. Don't know if I've gone as far as 10db though... I'll try that sometime. I never, as a spectator, saw the process broken down like you did with the snare. Cool stuff.

Enjoyed the video Brandon. Kickass drum sound.

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to slam an 808 clap sample 20db deep into my 2bus now - think I care?