Sidechaining?

[engineroom]

I am just starting to learn about side-chaining and using it in Cubase 4. I have learned its used a lot on the kick drum to get it to punch through the mix, should I try this out?

I always use compression on my kicks (doing a lot of metal/death metal these days), should I use side-chaining for some extra punch through the mix?

I am also still trying to figure out what the benefits of sidechaining are besides the example above... do you use it on other instruments as well? Vocals? Solos? Do you combine instruments on the side-chain send ever?

I would appreciate a little advice on this... thanks guys!!!

[sparqee]

Originally Posted by engineroom

I am just starting to learn about side-chaining and using it in Cubase 4. I have learned its used a lot on the kick drum to get it to punch through the mix, should I try this out?

I always use compression on my kicks (doing a lot of metal/death metal these days), should I use side-chaining for some extra punch through the mix?

I am also still trying to figure out what the benefits of sidechaining are besides the example above... do you use it on other instruments as well? Vocals? Solos? Do you combine instruments on the side-chain send ever?

I would appreciate a little advice on this... thanks guys!!!

If you're running a compressor on an entire drum bus or perhaps a loop (i.e. a signal that has a mix of multiple drums) then using a side chain can allow you to filter the key input that drives the compressor. You might filter out the lows in the side chain so that the kick does not trigger compression. This might allow the kick to stand out more.

Another popular use of side chain is to key a compressor to "duck" a signal. For example:
You have a music track playing in the background and an announcer that speaks up every so often. You want the music to become a bit quieter whenever the announcer speaks. By placing a compressor on the music track and using the announcer's voice as the key input to the compressor you can drive the compressor to bring down the music when the announcer speaks. People also use this arrangement to duck a thick bass line to make room for the kick.

You can also use the side chain input to use a compressor as a de-esser. You filter the side chain input to focus on a particular frequency range (for example the frequency of an "ss" sound in a vocal). When that sound keys the compressor it clamps down and makes the signal quieter. There are really quite a few de-esser plugins these days so I don't know that there is much call for this anymore but the general principle can lead to some creative processing.

I personally don't use side chaining a lot in my music but there are times when it comes in handy. I do wish that the UAD-1 plugins had side chain inputs. I might experiment with it more.

[engineroom]

OK, thanks for the reply. That makes sense. I guess I was seeing side-chaining being used as a bass line "duck" with the kick drum as the input. It is nice that the Cubase compressor has a side-chain switch, it seems to work pretty well... I also know that there are some free specialty "side-chain" compressors that exist...

Sparqee, do you think it would make sense to use side-chaining in metal music, to allow the kick room to punch through the bass line? I was messing with it this morning and it seemed to work out OK in the mix I was working on (just some fake stuff I was messing with).

[sparqee]

Whether you need the kick to duck the bass depends on your kick sound, your bass sound and how the two instruments are playing together. My experience with rock music is that if the bass player and drummer are grooving together I don't feel a need for this kind of ducking. SOme really good bass players will actually place ever so slightly behind the kick to allow the kick to snap and then have the bass note "bloom" behind it.

I think the whole kick/bass side chain thing is mostly prevalent in electronic music where they're using really thick/busy bass synth sounds but they also won't the listener to perceive a very low/thick kick. They duck the bass synth to make room for the kick. It's more common in metal to let the bass dominate the extreme low end and actually make the kick rather snappy.

It's all a matter of taste but if the rhythm of the low end instruments are tight then I don't find the need for this sort of thing. I prefer a "punchy" low end over a "thick" one.

[Bigduggieface]

If you do decide to experiment with sidechaining in Cubase, here is a useful YouTube instructional video that may help.

[Thomas Hartkop]

I have recently been back in the industry. I started recording in the late 50's. I have restarted recording and this time around using DAW. Cubase 4 is great for sidechaining. In recording a local blues band, I was able to sidechain the bass guitar. The guitar was recorded straight with out the amp. Using Presonus FP-10 output daisy chained through an Aphex 204 aural exiter and optical big bottom then through an Aphex 320a compressor. Then back through the FP-10 back in and recorded to a seperate bass channel along with the original. It gives a solid bass line used in blues and sounds great. Check out the results. Broadway Phil and the Shouters

It works well

Tom Hartkop

[sparqee]

What did you use the side chain for? Just filtering of the key input or did you actually use another signal to drive the compressor?

[brandondrury]

I have learned its used a lot on the kick drum to get it to punch through the mix, should I try this out?

Absolutely not! Do not try out new methods of improving your recordings....EVER!

Obviously, I'm kidding. If you are looking for permission, I officially grant you permission to have fun with new recording tricks.

I always use compression on my kicks (doing a lot of metal/death metal these days), should I use side-chaining for some extra punch through the mix?

NO! You should NEVER use methods that make your kick drums sound bigger, meaner, and more powerful while allowing you to get away with bigger, meaner bass sounds.

I do wish that the UAD-1 plugins had side chain inputs.

I doubt if it would make any difference using a fun compressor or a more boring compressor on my sidechain activities. It's more of a utility thing and I'm not sure if there would be any real benefits to the added character of fancy plugins. I guess you never know until you try.

Sparqee, do you think it would make sense to use side-chaining in metal music, to allow the kick room to punch through the bass line?

Dude. What do you think? I'll give you a hint. I consider it absolutely essential to use a sidechain compressor on the bass for ANY song that needs to sound big. It's really not so much about the kick. It's actually more about the bass. When you can make the bass huge and still have the kick punch through, your entire mixing will change forever for the better.

This thing is relatively subtle, really. I personally don't feel that the groove of the song has that much to do with it either way. It's more to do with with making several big things coexist. It's most needed on tunes that are going to be limited hard on the 2bus.

SOme really good bass players will actually place ever so slightly behind the kick to allow the kick to snap and then have the bass note "bloom" behind it.

Yup, and in a sense this is a similar concept to sidechaining, but not exactly.

I think the whole kick/bass side chain thing is mostly prevalent in electronic music where they're using really thick/busy bass synth sounds but they also won't the listener to perceive a very low/thick kick.

Obvious sidechaining has been used in electronic music forever. However, I'd love to see the numbers on major label rock / metal uses of sidechaining. I'm guessing it's 98%. I could be wrong.

[sparqee]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Obvious sidechaining has been used in electronic music forever. However, I'd love to see the numbers on major label rock / metal uses of sidechaining. I'm guessing it's 98%. I could be wrong.

I suppose the reason I never considered side chain bass ducking to be so prevalent in metal is because the kick is so obviously high end heavy. I figured this was the typical solution to prevent competition between busy bass & kick tracks. There's no reason there couldn't be ducking going on but I would think that a busy double kick would turn the bass into swiss cheese if there was fast attack/release ducking taking place. I'll need to listen with this in mind next time I have some metal blasting.

[zildjohn01]

Originally Posted by sparqee

busy double kick would turn the bass into swiss cheese

It's not a gate, it doesn't cut off the bass completely. It just lowers it a few dB during the kick. The energy of the kick comes through so you don't even notice the bass drop. Especially with 18 (or just 2) guitars playing over the top. Ok, so I just fired up some three days grace and I can hear this. It might be overdone even, the kick is just so "dry" under there.

I honestly never gave any thought to this for rock, but I'm gonna give it a try on my next song. My usual method is to use tape emulators and stuff on the kick to get it to kinda cut through. Then when I stick the limiter on, it disappears. Then I crank the kick 10 or 20 dB so it cuts through again when limited. I'm guessing side chaining might be a better method
EDIT: So I guess I was actually ducking my whole mix under the kick

So I guess I'm gonna give this a try. I got a basic side chaining setup with ReaComp. Brandon, do I have permission?