Recording Drums: Recorderman or Glynn Johns technique??

[dom8154]

Hi all,

I'm gonna hit the REC button this Friday morning on a new session.

I wanted to have your cue on which mic technique to use as room and over head...
I've never tried any of Glynn or Recorderman techniques but it seems pretty tempting.

Here's a few details about the gig:
The artist wants an overall organic sound,
(even if the term may sound ''cliche'' or maybe a lil abused over time.. hehe!)

The songs are pretty much all acoustisc, with acc. drum, percs, pianos, male vocals,
not so much back vox... well, as you can see, there will be a lot of room to mix.

I can define the style of the songs as accoustic Pink Floyd meets Neal Young meets
Bob Dylan... ahaha... Big moody ambiance with emphasis on the vocals.
So, my drums recording needs a little ''air'' I guess.

The gear I dispose:
I will be working in a ''not so big'' room to track the drums.
I figured out of the place it and treat the room for optimal recording.

The drum will be a 4 pieces, (kc,sn,1tom,1floor,) with a cool set of cymbals.
The drummer is a guy who I worked with before, and he's really careful about balancing his kit. No problem here.

My question is mostly about my mics and mic techniques.

After the close-micing the kit,
I'll have at my disposal two Cascade FatHead II ribbon mics (w/blumlein bar)
a pair of Rode NT-1000s, (cardioid condensers) and also a Cascade ELROY tube mic.
(switchable pattern, card./omni/fig.8)

My first idea was to use the ribbons in a G. Johns or Recorderman setup,
placing the Nt-1000 in ortf in front of the kit. (as stereo room) and place the tube mic
as a mono room, at the end of a corridor that communicates with my drum room.
I thought I might pick up some interesting reverberation down there...

How does it sounds to your ears?
Any suggestion about how you guys would place them?

Regards,

-Dom

[willj]

Hey bud, just wondering how your session went, and what set up you ended up rollin with and how it worked for you ect.

[Chadfish]

I did a Glyn Johns using only 3 omni pattern Rode lapel mics. Sounded pretty good! I even did a whole song with those mics. It was an experiment that went much better than I thought it would. I posted the whole song in thr Bash this Song thread. "PinMic Song" Entire song recorded with lapel mics!

Here are the drums:

[dom8154]

Hey bud, just wondering how your session went, and what set up you ended up rollin with and how it worked for you ect.

Hi willjrockstar!

I will try to post some pics and comments about the session tonight.
Btw, I've ended up with a recorderman overhead setup, close miced all the pieces of the kit, Hi-hat, ride and a mono room mic.
(A total of 10 mics.) (Cascade FatHead II ribbon mics (OH), Cascade ELROY tube mic (room), Sennheiser e604 on toms/floor, Sm-57(2x) Sennheiser
e602 on kick and a pair of Behringer C2 on HH and Ride.)

Most of them were driven through a 27 years old Ramsa WR mixer. (This thing seriously ROCKS! )

After the first 10 min of sound checks, my fears about the room were totally gone.
I did minor tweaks using blankets and mostly by getting rid of every piece of furniture in the room.
The good old ''trust your ears'' rule never been soooo true!! :P

Anyway, I will send some pics of my setup later.
Have a nice day!

-Dom

[dom8154]

I did a Glyn Johns using only 3 omni pattern Rode lapel mics. Sounded pretty good! I even did a whole song with those mics. It was an experiment that went much better than I thought it would. I posted the whole song in thr Bash this Song thread. "PinMic Song" Entire song recorded with lapel mics!

Here are the drums:

Really nice work Chadfish!
But isn't that a ''Recorderman'' Setup?

I've always thought Glyn Johns setup were achieved that way:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...10-medium-.jpg

peace!
-Dom

[Chadfish]

I got the technique off of this video below, and maybe put the mics up higher. I observed the isosceles triangle measurements very strictly. Using omni mics I picked up a lot of room, but I think it sounded cool. I don't know the "recorderman" technique.

[dom8154]

I got the technique off of this video below, and maybe put the mics up higher. I observed the isosceles triangle measurements very strictly. Using omni mics I picked up a lot of room, but I think it sounded cool. I don't know the "recorderman" technique.

The recorderman technique is actually what this guy is using in the video you posted.
Check this out:
YouTube - Recorderman Overhead Drum technique
also:
Drum micing:Recorderman technique - Audio tutorials & database project

I will post some of my own pics later.
-Dom

[Chadfish]

Looks like Recorderman is a 2 mic technique. Glyn Johns is a 3 mic technique, and the measurements only relate to the snare (not kick) and the distance of the overheads from each other. My recording way Glyn Johns and used a 3rd lav mic near the hole on the kick.

[dom8154]

Glyn Johns Technique refer to 3 mic, as you mentioned.
Where I get a lil' confused, is where the third mic is placed.

Usually, we put it approx 3 to 8 inches above the floor tom.... (always keeping the distances in relation)


I'm not saying that your technique isn't good.
But it look like a crossing of both techniques to me.

-Dom

[willj]

Recordman has the following setup.
Mic A straight above snare.
Mic B near drummer's shoulder.
Point C = bassdrum beater point
Point D = snare drum center

A->C = B->C
A->D = B->D
Both mics pointed at snare center.


Glyn's Method
Mic A straight above snare.
Mic B approx 6" above low tom.
Point C = Snare drum center.

A->C = B->C
OH mic pointed at bass drum pedal
LT mic pointed at high-hats


The Glyn version makes up for the tilted OH mic by having the snare mic more centered with a harsh angle on the drum.
The recorderman, however, is set up to get perfect phase positioning on the bass drum. The Glyn version has been commonly modified to include a front mic a few feet away to boost the bass drum even more, to make up for the phasing.

[Chadfish]

Now we've got varying Glyn Johns methods here!

Mine was that both OH mics were the measured the same distance from the snare. I did raise the mic near the tom up higher than usual. Then you take the measurement between the 2 OH mics, and make the kick mic that measured distance from the snare. It's an isosceles triangle and phase is minimized.

[bozmillar]

interesting. The only thing I don't get with the Glyn Johns is why the third mic is placed to make an isosceles triangle. I must be thinking about it wrong because I don't see what that gets you.

[Chadfish]

interesting. The only thing I don't get with the Glyn Johns is why the third mic is placed to make an isosceles triangle. I must be thinking about it wrong because I don't see what that gets you.

That gets your kick mic "in phase".

[bozmillar]

That gets your kick mic "in phase".

in phase with what?

[ivan.lt]

In a conventional A-B overhead setup is it important to place the mics at equal distances from the snare drum?

[bozmillar]

In a conventional A-B overhead setup is it important to place the mics at equal distances from the snare drum?

it helps because it means that the sound from the snare arrives at both mics at the same time. If the sound arrives at one mic first, it will sound like it's panned if you have your mics panned wide, or have comb filtering if your mics aren't panned wide.

[Chadfish]

in phase with what?

In phase with the kick sound that bleeds into the two OH mics.

Out of phase recordings are hard to EQ and give a hollow sound. Like when recording an acoustic guitar with 2 mics. They both need to be the same distance from the guitar so they are in phase. Out of phase recordings are hard, if not impossible, to resolve to mono.

[bozmillar]

In phase with the kick sound that bleeds into the two OH mics.

Out of phase recordings are hard to EQ and give a hollow sound. Like when recording an acoustic guitar with 2 mics. They both need to be the same distance from the guitar so they are in phase. Out of phase recordings are hard, if not impossible, to resolve to mono.

right, but what I don't understand is what that has to do with an isosceles triangle. I don't understand why the distance between mic1 and mic2 should have anything to do with the distance from the snare to mic3. And now that I think about it, that doesn't even make an isosceles triangle.

I understand mic1 and mic2, but I think the position of mic3 has nothing to do with phase. I think he just thinks it does. Again, I may just be looking at it wrong, but if I understand 9th grade geometry, measuring mic3 in that manner isn't really doing anything.

[Chadfish]

You got me man! Maybe Glyn Johns knows? I was just following instructions for a simple 3 mic setup, and it sounded pretty good considering that they are lav mics and omni pattern.

[ivan.lt]

I don't understand why the distance between mic1 and mic2 should have anything to do with the distance from the snare to mic3.

I have not read the whole discussion but the way I understand it, in this technique mic1 to mic2 distance is irrelevant, all three mics are equidistant from the snare.

[bozmillar]

I have not read the whole discussion but the way I understand it, in this technique mic1 to mic2 distance is irrelevant, all three mics are equidistant from the snare.

Yeah, if that was the case then it would make sense to me. I went and watched the video again to make sure I understood him right. At 1:30 he says "We're going to measure in between the mics, make an isosceles triangle. It's a mathematical formula." It's at that point where I realize he's just repeating (incorrectly I'd imagine) what someone else told him but not really understanding what's going on.

[Chadfish]

OK I found this short article on Wiki Audio. It measures the 2 overheads, then uses 2 spot mics for kick and snare. Maybe this is the official way:

Drum micing:Glyn Johns technique - Audio tutorials & database project

[ivan.lt]

Yeah, if that was the case then it would make sense to me. I went and watched the video again to make sure I understood him right. At 1:30 he says "We're going to measure in between the mics, make an isosceles triangle. It's a mathematical formula." It's at that point where I realize he's just repeating (incorrectly I'd imagine) what someone else told him but not really understanding what's going on.

Yeah, I'm sure he does not understand. In fact, what he got was more like an isosceles tetrahedron.

Now I think it's time someone came up with geometry terms for multimic kit recording!

[bozmillar]

OK I found this short article on Wiki Audio. It measures the 2 overheads, then uses 2 spot mics for kick and snare. Maybe this is the official way:

Drum micing:Glyn Johns technique - Audio tutorials & database project

ah, that make sense. Thanks for digging that up. so mic3 is personal preference. So it looks like the main difference between glyn johns and recorderman is that with recorderman, the kick is also in phase with the overheads.

[bozmillar]

Now I think it's time someone came up with geometry terms for multimic kit recording!

No need. Apparently you can just make up words on the spot and call it a mathematical formula.