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  1. #1
    jkuehlin's Avatar
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    Default Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Eh, can someone smarter than me, who knows how a preamp works tell me if there's a difference? And which one is theoretically the best design? I see an 's', an 'a', and a 'b' in the series.
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Ok JK just looking at the schematics there all the same design they just added the following.

    ms1 orginal design

    ms1a added c31 changed c1&c2 to smt

    ms1b changed r1 to a 14mm pot( this is your gain pot)

    ms1s is the final revision in 2001 moved the d4 in the power supply

    the really isnt much difffernce but most of the changes were done just before the Z1 op amp this would be basically the gain structure input they must of

    tweaked the incoming signal to match the inst amp to get the proper bais as not to distort the signal i would chose the final version the ms1s.
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    dgarner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    I just found a new schematic of the ms1s they changed it quite a bit it a much simpler design and added a bridge rectifier on the power supply.

    this was interesting i found in the manual

    DIGITAL RECORDING AND SAMPLING
    Another handy use for the MS1S is in recording applications. Many popular
    products do not have a high enough quality mic preamp to suit the resolution
    of the digital processing electronics. Such irony. Using the ultra low noise
    MS1S to bring the mic inputs up to extremely high quality line-level is an
    easy and affordable solution for this dilemma. No garbage in; no garbage out.
    Clippity-clop; clippity-clop
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    dgarner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    This got me thinking...brandon had mentioned some preamp chips from that corp i could see using this circuit and working these into it but make it 8 channels with a usb bus out to the pc i no he talks about his rane stuff quite a bit

  5. #5
    brandondrury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    This has been on my to do list.

    For a person not into resistors and chips, the short version is, "Yes, they changed stuff." I'm into the nerdy end and decided to build a kit with the THAT1510 chip they use in the MS1S just to hear what I GUESS is a THAT1510 preamp done right. I know my single Rane Ms1b was "done right". We'll see if the one in the mail sounds the same. I know identical chips can sound quite different. I'm about to sell the M-Audio DMP3 as it doesn't have the thing that the Rane MS1b does. (I should probably measure to quantify the difference.)

    I don't know how the Rane MS1S sounds. On paper the THAT1510 is a hair better than the INA163 used in the MS1B. Personally, I'd be more interested in the engineer(s) who designed it and if they were going through a divorce. If the humans involved with the MS1b were on their game with the MS1s, I expect it to be identical. I've heard a touch of cloudiness in a few other THAT1510 clips which I'm not sure is another factor or the preamp itself.

    I'll probably shell out the $200 for an MS1s on Ebait soon, but I'm backed up and trying not to plan an experiments until I get caught up. I figured after the Super Secret $51 Preamp vs $2,000 Martech MSS-10 | Home Recording Blog more people would be interested in the Rane issue. I can't explain that, but I don't really care. By definition, a "sleeper" tool doesn't get a person any status.

    Brandon

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Owning an SM57 doesn't get you any sort of "status" either, but it's still generally a good idea. The "status" thing is more of a class warfare issue. If you don't have a $1000+ Neumann mic, people know you aren't just blowing cash on reputable gear, so you're lower class. Same with a Neve preamp. A culture has built up around pricey reputable gear that means if you want to on the "in" group, you need it. Is it solid, usable gear? Yes, of course it is. So is the SM57. The 57 is just inexpensive, so there's no class issue around it because almost anyone can afford one. It's roughly a month or two of phone bills for most people.

    If the Rane is a solid preamp it'll never reach the same status as a Neve, just like the SM57 doesn't have the same status as a Neumann. Who cares? I'll happily use my Shure mics and make music.
    From Austin to Boulder, still in the process of getting a house.

  7. #7
    brandondrury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    The SM57 is a slight exception in that a bunch of big guys claim to use it on snare, guitars, and sometimes vocals. A $49 Radio Shack mic could be identical in virtually every way, but DEFINITELY won't get the same approval.

    I understand the trust factor. There are only so many hours in a day and a person can't try EVERYTHING. So you lean on this or that reputation and give it a go. My gig here lets me do much more experimentation that I would otherwise. I don't have a problem with a guy using a U87 > 1073. I've just heard to many shitty recordings done with that signal chain to think it has any magic in it.

    Brandon

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    I remember being at Fender museum in Cali, and Leo mentioned brand name recognition was the hardest thing of all to get the biz going.
    Shure, Fender, Nuemann they made it work, with help of big names using their gear.
    Im so old I recall WalMart being the underdog... the Robin Hood... now they're lambasted regularly for polluting society...weird how that happens.
    "I may try it, because why not?" seafroggys

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Originally Posted by dgarner
    Ok JK just looking at the schematics there all the same design they just added the following.

    ms1 orginal design

    ms1a added c31 changed c1&c2 to smt

    ms1b changed r1 to a 14mm pot( this is your gain pot)

    ms1s is the final revision in 2001 moved the d4 in the power supply

    the really isnt much difffernce but most of the changes were done just before the Z1 op amp this would be basically the gain structure input they must of

    tweaked the incoming signal to match the inst amp to get the proper bais as not to distort the signal i would chose the final version the ms1s.
    Dgarner, I never got a chance to thank you for lending your thoughts to that question. I can't read schematics, and don't know anything about electronics. A few of Brandon's recent thoughts made me want to take a look at this thread again

    So...

    If the ms1s is less likely to distort...3 questions
    Is it even noticable?
    Does it affect headroom?
    If yes to the first question, is the amount of distortion (I think this is signal to noise ratio) possibly a desirable thing to have? I mean, are we talking about distortion that is the fun colorful stuff to play around with? or are we talking distortion that just sounds bad?

    I had every intention of buying a couple of these rane units. I completely forgot about it. Just looked on ebay, music-go-round, and GC's used site. None up for grabs at the moment.
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  10. #10
    garww's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    "Im so old I recall WalMart being the underdog... the Robin Hood"..

    I used to work at Robin Hood

    EDIT; Robin Hood Supermarket, where we could toss beer out the back door.
    Last edited by garww; 07-03-2014 at 01:13 PM.
    brandondrury likes this.
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  11. #11
    brandondrury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Ok JK just looking at the schematics there all the same design they just added the following.
    I was under the impression that they switched to a THAT1510 in the MS1S from INA163 in the MS1B.

    Is it even noticable?
    I just got my Manley TNT back from the Manley shop. I plan on asking this question when comparing it to any of the "junk" I have around here. The "is it even noticeable" question seems to something that seems to attract the jazz and classical people for reasons that allude me...except for maybe their reluctance to turn knobs.

    If yes to the first question, is the amount of distortion (I think this is signal to noise ratio) possibly a desirable thing to have? I mean, are we talking about distortion that is the fun colorful stuff to play around with? or are we talking distortion that just sounds bad?
    I don't know anything about the MS1S or MS1A for whatever that is worth.

    You won't ever notice any distortion in the MS1b unless you do it on purpose. There's no benefit I've heard to doing that.

    If you read much about preamp design like in Small Signal Audio Design: Douglas Self: 9780240521770: Amazon.com: Books you'll see that these preamp designers will agonize forever over achieving 0.00001% distortion instead of 0.00002% distortion. Technically, their efforts cut distortion by 50%. Alright! In real life, nothing changed.....AT ALL...for me.

    This is why quite a few electronics types will insist that discreet preamps (no chips) are superior. In their world of 0.0000002% distortion being a bad thing they may be right. In my world of trying to keep the 1% distortion light lit at all times on my Distressor, it's entirely meaningless.....even if I'm not even using my Distressor. The usual shit happens where nerds get obsessed with the details and forget about the people actually consuming the stuff. Just as a mix/song I do must pass the wife test, these electronics engineers need to actually make compelling tools for engineers. The MS1b satisfies all my needs for boosting mic signals. What I was supposed to gain from the Martech still eludes me.

    The Manley TNT is an interesting curve ball here because it does do "tint". I've got to decide what I think of that. I know that "tint" does nothing when the client insists on using his muddy guitar his grandpa gave him. That's the world of prostitution, though.

    As for "fun distortion", I can't say that I've ever heard that on a preamp. Maybe it's because I don't put pads in front of the inputs on my console and can't push the preamps hard. (I may be missing out.) Venuestudio mentioned loving the sound of a hard driven API. For me "fun distortion" is OVERT and it's hard to beat Trash2 for that....and that includes every analog gadget I've heard....except for maybe guitar gadgets.

    Brandon

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    which cheap pre chip is better?
    the .000002 vs .000001....worth the effort.

    what i find alarming in a cheap way is the comment "I just got my Manley TNT back from the Manley shop."
    which undermines the expensive stuff argument that expensive gear might not sound better, but its built so much better!, so you can have 100yrs of flawless service years....because it is expensive and built better.

    so I'll wait and see if the Rane breaksdown or melts and needs to be sent out for repair too. per the cost the Rane should break down 10x's more often than the Manley, right?
    "I may try it, because why not?" seafroggys

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    .....missing drums? hmmmm?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    "which cheap pre chip is better?
    the .000002 vs .000001....worth the effort".

    That's just a self perpetuating culture. Plenty of people live outside that game
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  14. #14
    brandondrury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    what i find alarming in a cheap way is the comment "I just got my Manley TNT back from the Manley shop."
    which undermines the expensive stuff argument that expensive gear might not sound better, but its built so much better!, so you can have 100yrs of flawless service years....because it is expensive and built better.
    Yeah, I've had trouble with quite a few high end tools. There's no denying that bad components aren't going to help with reliability, but then we have to define what "bad" is. The problem is the impact of the boutique gear gets overestimated due to the exponential price. The price is plagued by the inefficiency that small companies generally face. The whole "hand built" thing has never sat well with me. I pick robots EVERY time when it comes repeating boring tasks with incredible precision.

    These types of discussions get brushed over in Mix magazine, unfortunately.

    Brandon

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    I just got a deal on a small tube amp, and a "hand built " pedal was tossed in.
    looked up this pedal, it was $157 street! and I thought "hand built" pedal ? what does that mean?

    I'm going to sell it and see what Hand-Built goes for on a HAO Sole Pressure pedal, with ac wart.
    They are "hand-built", isnt almost everything hand-built"? All Shure mics must be "Hand-Built" then?
    Marketing red-flag?
    "I may try it, because why not?" seafroggys

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    .....missing drums? hmmmm?

  16. #16
    garww's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Looks like it's on perf-board. Kinda wish they all did that
    pss790&370, K1,K1r, d-5, qy10, x-fi notebook, gina20, turser p90 sg, Ibanez steel string, Bongos, Washboard, Roberts 770 w/dual EF86, cedar ridge acoustic, EKO Ranger 12-string, DeArmond M65, Electromatic JJ bass, DeArmond M75, Fulltone FD2, Tannoy Sixes, DPS,DR1,DR-X m106, dbx128, korg SQ1, akai s2000, tascam PS5, ultraNOVA, dod 866ii

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Hey on the MS1b, I am finding that unless it's on a non-transient rich source like electric guitar or vocals, I am having to stick a pad in front of it because it's clipping my RME's interface line input. Anyone else have an issue with that? And mind you, that's with a run of the mill SM57. I run into the same issue with my RME pres because the first gain step is 10db, which proves, fairly often, to make transients go over 0dbfs. However the 0 setting is too quiet.

    I wish this thing had an output attenuator or something because I like it on drums. Very fast sounding. The presence of an output attenuator is maybe the one thing that might steer me back to a 500 series rack and some CAPI pres instead of getting some MS1s action going.

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    I'm confused. How is it too quiet at one setting and yet clipping at 10 dB louder? Your RME has plenty of dynamic range. Peaking at -9 dBFS is fine, right?
    From Austin to Boulder, still in the process of getting a house.

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    The RME pres can be at zero. At zero, it's too quiet, relatively speaking. If I have to record that way I just use the trim function in my DAW to gain them up, but I'd rather have them at close to the level I want going in. The next step above that is 10 db; meaning there isn't a setting anywhere from 1-9. if the drummer isn't a hard hitter it's a non-issue.

    I have the issue with the Rane where even at Zero it's clipping the line input. I believe that all the way down on the Rane is 10 or 15db IIRC. Nothing can really be done about the RMEs aside from using inline pads. I am just wondering if anyone else runs into this with the MS1b. I don't have this issue with my other pres. I like the pre just fine, and it'll be great for vocals, acoustic, overheads, room mic, etc, but this issue on close drum mics is what keeps me from getting a whole studio full of them.
    Last edited by ElCapitan; 07-12-2014 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Oh, I misunderstood. Yeah, don't use it for applications that give you unwanted clipping. I don't have a Rane myself.
    From Austin to Boulder, still in the process of getting a house.

  21. #21
    brandondrury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    this issue on close drum mics is what keeps me from getting a whole studio full of them.
    It's extremely common to need to pad close mics on drums particularly if the preamp design has a minimum of X gain. I've had to do this with many of my high end preamps, too. It happens so much I don't even think about it. In fact, I'm not sure I've tried the MS1b on drums WITHOUT the pads as I've just gotten used to using 8 pads on my snake. Parts-Express sells 'em cheap. It's just a resistor shorted to ground (simple voltage divider).

    Brandon

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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    In that case, is there a better tool than a preamp for the job? It seems like if you don't want gain, a preamp is overkill.
    From Austin to Boulder, still in the process of getting a house.

  23. #23
    dgarner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Originally Posted by jkuehlin
    Dgarner, I never got a chance to thank you for lending your thoughts to that question. I can't read schematics, and don't know anything about electronics. A few of Brandon's recent thoughts made me want to take a look at this thread again

    So...

    If the ms1s is less likely to distort...3 questions
    Is it even noticable?
    Does it affect headroom?
    If yes to the first question, is the amount of distortion (I think this is signal to noise ratio) possibly a desirable thing to have? I mean, are we talking about distortion that is the fun colorful stuff to play around with? or are we talking distortion that just sounds bad?

    I had every intention of buying a couple of these rane units. I completely forgot about it. Just looked on ebay, music-go-round, and GC's used site. None up for grabs at the moment.
    what they did in the 4 revisions is made a better power supply this is less heat and more efficient

    in a lot of manufacturing they change op amps as new ones come out and the ones they used in the past might not be made anymore but in retrospect

    the last revision it will give you more headroom before distortion which gives you a even better preamp

    also in this you get a different color to the sound which is a desirable thing .

    and your very welcome JK glad I can help in any way
    “Wisdom is the reward you get for a lifetime of listening when you’d have preferred to talk.” – Doug Larson

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  24. #24
    brandondrury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    what they did in the 4 revisions is made a better power supply this is less heat and more efficient
    I noticed this weekend the current draw on a MS1S was like near-zero. I laughed. The damn thing is so efficient it almost produces electricity. Of course, electrical efficiency ain't THAT important (not more than sound quality), but I'd prefer to get both.

    also in this you get a different color to the sound which is a desirable thing .
    I've got a feeling it ain't THAT much color. Just for the record, I don't feel that multiple colors is a good thing for a mic pre.
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    Default Re: Rane Ms-1a vs Ms-1b vs Ms-1s

    Originally Posted by brandondrury
    I've got a feeling it ain't THAT much color. Just for the record, I don't feel that multiple colors is a good thing for a mic pre.
    I agree on that but with this being used for vocals mainly you wont see that multiple colorization, that would be the thing I would use this pre for.
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