Pre-amp question

[DogpitStudios]

I'm running two MXL 603s through an M-AUDIO audiobuddy pre (2 channels). The sound I tend to get when its completely unmixed is very thin. I don't think its the room because its a very large room and varios walls are built so that there are no parallels, but I don't have bass traps yet because I can't afford them, and I'm not quite eduacted enough about acoustics yet to spend my money. I'm thinking the sound I'm getting is a combination of the pre (which is pretty much complete crap) and the mic (which is a little better than decent in my opinion). By saturday I will have a new pair of condensers, the AKG C-1000s and soon after I'm gonna buy an M-AUDIO DMP3 pre (also two channels). I was wondering if anyone off hand can tell me what they think the problem in the chain is. My guess is that its the audiobuddy, because its only 50 bux and nobody has ever really said its that great. Don't get my wrong my incoming signal is not shit. I'm just trying to get my incoming signal to be amazing one step at a time.

Thanks guys,

Ben

[Ronan Chris Murphy]

I am going to guess its the audio buddy. Just do the math, if you pay 50 bucks for two pre amps, and an AD and DA converters. You are basically recording with $4 pre amps...

[TimRP]

Umm, the buddy doesn't have AD/DA converters, or did I miss something in your post.

[brandondrury]

You need to post some clips. "Thin" means different things to different people. I recorded a guy two weeks ago who considered an AT4050 through a Vintech 1272 to be thin (even when he was right up on the mic with lots of proximity effect).

Every MXL I've used has been very bright. Is this the thiness that you are talking about?

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

Yes you could say bright kind of describes it. Some cases it even sounds tinny as if the room I recorded in is made out of alluminum. I also feel like there is a lack of bass coming from this, obviously they are condensers and I shouldn't really hope for this especially with mine, but I think lack of bass and brightness are the two main parts of the thin sound. I'll post a clip by tomorrow. Also the audio buddy is said to have a frequency response down to 5 Hz. I really don't believe that load of crap. Is it true?

Ben

[Ronan Chris Murphy]

Umm, the buddy doesn't have AD/DA converters, or did I miss something in your post.

Is Audio buddy just a pre amp? If its an interface it has to convert the audio to digital.

[DogpitStudios]

Its just a pre. I use my MOTU for A/D conversion

Ben

[TimRP]

Also the audio buddy is said to have a frequency response down to 5 Hz. I really don't believe that load of crap. Is it true?

Well it could be trure, just that it might be 15dB down at 5Hz compared to 1KHz.

I also wonder what it is doing above 1KHz, if there is a boost there, you may be having the problems you describe, maybe?

[brandondrury]

You may not like this post, but here goes. I could be wrong, but I'm going to go with my gut here.

I'm guessing if you plugged a 5 string bass into a DI into your rig, you'll get more low end that you could stand. I'm guessing that if you recorded directly out of a keyboard with a sine wave type of bass sound, you could get more low end than you would ever want. In fact, I typically put a high pass filter on just about everything I record with the exception of bass guitar and kick drum (for a typical rock band). So, I really doubt the problem is deep bass.

I've never used an M-Audio preamp, but I'd guess that any non-broken preamp would sound comparable to other preamps in it's class. The preamps in my Mackie are about as cheap as they come and I don't lose any sleep when I lose them. Take a look at my preamp shootout. When compared with the big boys, the Mackie does not that terrible. I find it to be quite usable in the right situation. Assuming that the M-audio preamps you are using are similar to the Mackies (or maybe even better for all I know), the blame must be cast further down the line.

I'll assume your cables aren't broken.

Next is your mic. You are using an MXL mic. As stated before, the MXL condensers I've used are all bright. One could consider this to be "thin".

Next is your source. You haven't stated what all you've recorded with your rig. If you've recorded 2 things, then it's a little early. When you've recorded 20 or 30 different guitars, drums, vocals, etc and you find that they are all thin, maybe that's a problem.

More than likely, the problem is you. No offense. I hope you don't take this personally. I think that people put way too much importance on their gear. I've ran out of expensive preamps on so many live band type of recordings and always seam to revert back to Mackie. It seams that I get more compliments on tracks recorded with my Mackie, but that may be just be me making a note of it in my head that I impressed a client with a Mackie preamp (even though the typical message board seams to suggest that it's not possible).

If your tracks are thin and nothing is broken, I'm guessing you are just putting the mic in the wrong place on the wrong source.

Am I wrong?

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

Brandon,

You are might be right, and you might be wrong. I've recorded with the mxls as overheads with the audiobuddys as pres on about 5-6 kits so far. It isn't much but the chain does tend to sound bright in all ways. The first kit I did with these I wasn't used to them so I picked my own and tried about 14-15 different mic placements with just the overheads alone. No matter what It always sounded a bit to bright for my standards. I moved rooms after this and hoped to have this bright problem disapear since I was blaming it on the metal vents above the drums. The tinny sound changed for one, but they are still bright on every kit I have done. I realized the other day after the last drums I did that it really isn't a thin sound that describes it. There is just soo much Hi end on these that they have a peircing sound that Is a bit too in your face. They could be good for some stuff like micing a dull acoustic guitar for instance. I've miced the same acoustic guitar with these about 3 times with many different placements. this guitar is not the brightest sounding guitar, but I can get it to sound incredably out there with these mics which is why I like them. The other day I room miced with my KSM-27 and I have to say the sound was a lot more mellow on the drums with that. Maybe thats cause It was a room mic, but It seemed to roll off the higher frequencies in a good way to actually add a more mellow feeling to these drums. I've heard from other people that they get the same results with this mic. The reason why I brought up the pre was because I had a sort of feeling that the pre may be a bit bright sounding too. I am getting two AKG C-1000s (just ordered them from daddys they'll be here in 2 weeks). I was thinking maybe I should upgrade one of my pres too because they may sound a bit bright. I have 4 audiobuddys and I think some variation may be good anyway.

Ben

[PhilB]

two AKG C-1000s

- Crispy!

[DogpitStudios]

two AKG C-1000s

- Crispy!

What?

[brandondrury]

Well, I've never heard the pres you are using so I can't say for sure, but I've never recorded a kit and said "different pres would help this".

As I said, every MXL I've tried has been very bright. This is why they sell. Who's going to buy a dull mic? (Anyone who has a Royer R121 would buy a dull mic). I've never been able to use my V69s as overheads. They are too fizzy in the top end. When I talked to Fletcher on the phone he made it clear that these prosumer mics with their super boosted top end is not what the big boys use, especially on drums. I told him that I wanted a dark sounding condenser and that's when he recommended the U99. It's still fairly bright, but in a more natural way, if that makes any sense.

It sounds to me like you answered your own question. You said that the Shure KSM 27 sounded much better than the MXLs for this application? Is that correct? I know I'd buy more mics before I bought preamps, but you have to go with your gut and learn from it. Not everyone agrees with me and that's what makes this fun.

Lastly, if the drums are too bright, maybe you should darken the drums. Basically, I'm throwing out the idea of a cymbal change. I was recording a band this weekend who turned out to be a great band. I'm happy with the sound of everything except the cymbals. There is nothing I could do. The cymbals sounded shitty in the room too and the drummer knew it. If I would have had some nice cymbals, it would have saved the day. So in this case, I would have rather used the same mics and great cymbals (which would probably cost about $500) than use the same cymbals and some $20,000 Telefunken 251s.

Brandon

[brandondrury]

One other thing.

How did it sound when you tried SM 57s as the overheads?

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

Have not tried the 57s in this room quite yet, we are still moving in in a way.

Ben

[DogpitStudios]

Oh yes and some nice studios cymbals would be great too. But we would also kind of be in need of a nice studio kit which wont come into our budget for a while. About your talk on getting more mics before pres. WELL THATS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE DOING. I guess I didn't state that in this post, but we are buying the two new mics first. You said something about the U99? how much is that?

Ben

[DogpitStudios]

Ya, just checked on that U99... Waaaayyyyy to much for me right now.

Ben

[brandondrury]

Yeah, it took 4 years of recording before I could barely afford it myself. I wasn't necessarily recommending it, but it's something to shoot for down the road.

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

I'm definatly seeing earthworks down my road. God those mics are nice.

Ben

[brandondrury]

God those mics are nice.

Could you explain what that means exactly?

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

It means I would like to add a pair to my collection.

Ben

[brandondrury]

Why do you want to add them to your collection?

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

From what I hear and have seen off the various charts put out by their website and others web sites, its large frequency response is acompanied by an incredably flat db level. I seem to only be able to find bright mics now that have boosts around 4 khz and above, and I'd really enjoy some nice flat mics that still pick up everything, but in a more dullish or darker manner on the his. I can get this from these mics I hear. Am I wrong here. Cuts at 100 KHz and rolls off bellow 3 Hz, flat in between.

Ben

[brandondrury]

That sounds like a great reason to try out those mics.

I was asking these questions to ensure that readers of the forum weren't misled. Anytime a mic is called "nice", there should be some sort of facts to explain it.


I can totally understand your desire for unhyped microphones. I too have dealt with the same issues. The MXL sound (at least the V69) hasn't worked out too well on overheads. Most of my other mics are also hyped...AT 4033, Oktava MK 012, AT 4050, etc. They all can get too bright with the wrong source. Actually, my AKG 414 is fairly smooth at the top end. It has air to it without being fizzy. I guess I should buy another mic like that.

I was just reading an article that talked about as you get better at recording you get less impressed with "bright mics". It sounds like we are both graduating a level these days. Sometimes the dullest mic you can find is exactly what the track needs.

If you pick up the Earthworks mics anytime soon, I expect a full review.

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

I'd write a full review anyday (assuming I got one). I'm actually getting a bit iffy after studying the C-1000s frequency response chart. It also looks very very bright. I'm not exactly sure what we want but can anyone suggest some flat mics that aren't above $600 each, I'm not even sure If I can hit that with my budget right now.

Ben