New clients need two powerful metal guitars, have only limited recources.

[DogpitStudios]

Now when I say limited I don't mean too too limited. This band started up recording with us yesterday, and they are looking for a very technical speedmetal type of kick your ass guitar sound. They have two guitarists, and I'd really like to show it by giving them two different but equal guitar sounds. I've got one marshall 2 10" combo with a rackmount compressor gate into an avatar 4 12". There is also a Peavy tube head running into a 2 12 avatar cab. Lastely (and least impressivly) I've got a cheap ($600 or something) crate head witha 4 10". Here's the problem: the guitarist who leaves his peavy/avatar set up in the studio gets very protective over it, and wont let us use it for this particular project. So this limits me quite a bit. The marshall into the avatar is gold, but the crate is shit. I've recorded it with numerous different guitars (esp baritones, les pauls, first acts, and others, and It always seems to have way too much bass (even when the bass is turned all the way down) and way too little mids, even when they are at 10. So in other words, it doesn't kick my ass. We're charging them by time, so I don't want to waste there time at all (yeah I'm only screwing myself), I'm wondering if anyone with experience in ass-crushing metal guitars could suggest something hear for two different guitar tones. I guess I could just screw the idea of two different set ups and tweak the knobs a tiny bit on the marshall. Any suggestions to try so that I don't go wasting tonnnnsss of time. I'm already probably going to spend an hour on getting one guitar tone anyway.

Also I'd like to have it set up in a way so that either guitarist can record there parts when ever they want. I have enough mic inputs and mics to do this, but not enough amps.

Thanks,
Ben

[brandondrury]

Hang on, damn it.

Let's have a little talk before we hop into the engineering.

You have been doing this recording thing long enough to know it works. Some of the most important factors in a recording are the talent of the people involved, the dedication of the people involved, and having plenty of time to do what both you and the musicians need to do.

#1 - Don't take this personal, but if the guitarists don't take their tone serious enough to find the amp that is exactly them, than they probably don't take the other things involved in great tone seriously either.

Tone is in the fingers. A person who ignores what is coming out of the amp can't possibly play with great timing, finesse, style, etc. A person who doesn't give a damn about that horrid fizz coming out of their amp, probably doesn't care about their vibrato or ability to bend notes to pitch.

This isn't about money. In America, there are like 10 people who haven't blown $500-1000 in the past 3 years on entertainment, toys, and unnecessary shit. The odds are strong that these guys are no different than some of the half assed bozos, I've wasted my time, energy, and gear trying to make something that resembled out of.

they are looking for a very technical speedmetal type of kick your ass guitar sound

So am I (sometimes). I'm still looking for guitarists that can give it to me.

Strike 1!!

Here's the problem: the guitarist who leaves his peavy/avatar set up in the studio gets very protective over it, and wont let us use it for this particular project.

Read that again.

the guitarist who leaves his peavy/avatar set up in the studio

and

gets very protective over it

If it's abandon at the studio, no one is being protective over it. Furthermore, if it's left at the studio, it's fair game to anyone who wants to use it. Bottom line. If he doesn't like it, there is nice, safe place for him to keep his amp....SOMEWHERE ELSE! I hate people who say "no one can use my amp". It's not like you are gigging with it or going to spill beer on it.


#2

We're charging them by time, so I don't want to waste there time at all (yeah I'm only screwing myself),

No, you are screwing me and anyone else who has spent more than 2 seconds trying to help you because you are getting into some damn hurry to please people who don't feel like your worth more money. You are screwing over your parents for taking the time to raise you just to see you half ass your own life to do what you think pleases others. (By the way, these same guys will blame you when the recording doesn't blow away the last Killswitch cd. They will go to another studio, talk about how much they love it. They'll probably pay that studio 10x what they paid you. Then the results will be 10x shittier than the record you had done. )

Alright, don't get too bent out of shape on this one. I'm not completely serious here. You are not screwing me over. This is not the end of world and it's certainly not as dramatic as I've made it seem.

With age, you will have more confidence in your abilities. You are letting people walk all over you but telling yourself that you are just trying to help other bands. You need to explain to these guys that it takes time to get the guitar sound they want. If they don't want to take that amount of time, that's fine. Who knows what the result will be! That's not your problem. However, if you are letting the fact that they don't have much money somehow effect your day, you are going to burn out. If the band isn't good enough for you to record just for fun or for backend, they have to pay. I don't feel sorry for people. I'm not rich either. The guy at Outback doesn't sneak me steak that I can't afford because he feels sorry for me. I take it personally when someone expects me to sneak them extra recording that they didn't pay for.

So, if you want to make a great record, you won't get anywhere by rushing. I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

Strike 2

Well...that's all I have....2 strikes.

Brandon

[brandondrury]

Okay, here is the part you really wanted to hear minus the lesson on life.

I'm assuming that you aren't producing here. So, you have no control over arrangement, the music, etc. Brutal guitars are a function of the arrangement, the right tone at the right time, and a mic tossed somewhere within the area to pick that up well.

From what I've heard, these guys sound like players who don't take their tone seriously and have asked you to rush and half ass your job while expecting mega results. I have a feeling that you have already lost.

If someone said "We wanted bone crushing guitars but we play shit", I'd expect that they dont' have what it takes to get bone crushing guitars.

However, assuming they are amazing guitar players who lost all their great amps and $$ in a house fire or natural disaster, I'd do a few things.

#1 if the Marshall is happening, use it. Wagener used the exact same ADA MP-1 preset on like 4 mega hair band albums in a row. He used the same preset, power amp, cabinet, and micing setup. The results are nowhere near similar (first Skid Row album, White Lion, and maybe Extreme (not sure about that one).

So, use the same amp and different guitars. That should cover it. I don't think either guitar player needs to sound drastically different anyway. If there parts are arranged properly, either one will cut through without much trouble with the same sound.

#2 Don't get too excited about this. I love your enthusiasm, but one of the biggest pitfalls of recording is trying too hard. Don't! Do your best, but if are trying for the hugest guitar sound of all time, you will fail. Instead, go for a great guitar sound that compliments the music. The rest will take care of itself.

-----------

Sorry if I offended you, but I'm looking out for your best interests. I've been through the exact same shit as you are going through now. In the end, i may be a little bitter. Now, I'm happier than ever (in terms of recording) and not making dick in terms of $$$. However, I pick and choose who I record and the results have been 10,000 times better.

In the future, I'd make sure that I recorded bands that already sounded great and didn't need to borrow gear. I'm telling you, you'll be happier in the end. (These bands usually don't mind paying you, either).

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

I think you are mis-understanding the situation a little bit. Meaning you are taking little things I mentioned that weren't a big deal about them and turning them into a bit deal about them. I recorded guitars yesterday before I read your post, so I coulnd't use the advice anyway. Either way I spent 2 hours getting the guitar sound. We ended up stealing my friends Peavy Valve King that he wouldn't let us use, and it sounded great. The guitarist was also a very good guitarist, (the kind of guy who could make his palm mutes jab you in the face). We were only going to put a 57 on it, but after testing a 57, an mxl 603s, A Kel Hm-1, and a Shure KSM 27, the shure and the 57 combined sounded the best. I know a lot of people don't like double micing on guitar cabs but this was the best guitar tone I have gotten. We also ran a DI from the head (which ended up being all fizz and I probably will only turn it down very very very low to not using it in the mix).

The guitarist actually was the least of the problems. He might not have great gear besides his guitar, but thats because he is pretty poor, meaning his famiy was poor and his 9-5 job doesn't help. He plays guitar all day instead and his chops are actually very good. The drummer on the other hand had some timing issues from the beginning. I listened to him do one take, and told him that if he wanted to sound like the pros he would need a metrenome. Well we put one on and he did a few takes, and just couldn't play to it (which pisses me off because a month before they came in I said start practicing to a metrenome). Luckely the guitarist is one of those guys who could play with the bad timing, meaning make all the rushed hits, speed up where the drummer sped up and slow down where he slowed down. He would even play all the breaks (which did not last the appropriate amount of time) and still come in on time with the rest.

Either way, this is actually the best sounding mix I have ever made in my opinion. I'll have mp3s once bass and vocals are done, then you can judge how much I rushed it for yourself.

Ben

[brandondrury]

i'm glad it worked out for you.

You got lucky. There are a handful of guys who are amazing guitar players and use crappy gear. I understand that not everyone has a ton of cash to burn for a great rig, but a person who really takes their tone and playing seriously will save to get it.

So, again, I'm glad that the guitar situation turned out great. However, it still sounds like you are putting too great a responsibility of the recording on your shoulders.

I'll have mp3s once bass and vocals are done, then you can judge how much I rushed it for yourself.

Cool. As far as the "rushing it" part is concerned, that was totall up to you. In your forum post, you seemed to suggest that you wouldn't have an adequate time to do your job. If this wasn't the case, no problem.

From my own experiences, I've found the only to fear is the fear of not having enough time . In other words, when I know we only have X hours to complete X tracks, I get into rush mode. When the band has enough time to get the job done, I relax a little bit. However, the real magic happens when I have more time than I will ever need.

For example, I'm not sure what kind of time you had to get your tone. Lately for the huge sounds, I've been 2-4 layers of guitar with a Les Paul / Rivera / R121 combo that sounds a tad dark. Then, I'll put 6 layers of fizz on top of that.

It takes 3 or 4 hours to do all of these tracks, make sure all the parts are tight, etc. However, I've found the results to be well worth it. By taking the time to dick around, I'm sneaking my way a little closer to getting mega tones.

So, don't overlook that part.


I'm glad you used the right amp. Your post suggested that you were taking a very passive, bend-over-and-take-it-in-the-ass-for-your-clients attitude. Your last posts suggest that it wasn't as bad as I originally thought.

Either way, after all of this drama / philosophy / whatever I'm anxious to see what you came up with.

The two mic system is very popular. I've had better luck with a single mic, mainly for phase reasons. Now that I know that Voxengo has a phase adjuster thingy plugin, I'm considering combiniing the R121 with a 57 (as long as I can instantly combine them down to one track within Cubase).

Brandon