Moving from sample-based drums to real drums

[midKnight]

Hey Everyone,

Just thought I'd toss this up here for discussion sake. I recently have had my first real mixing shell-shock, and would be interested in hearing how others have made the transition.

First off, I am in no way attempting to start any kind of sample vs real drum holy war here, so let me get that out of way immediately.

A quick bit of backstory, I have always been a sample-based drum user, whether it be from e-drum kits or manually programmed.

Recently, I went to a "pro studio" with a famous pro drummer and very experienced engineer to record an acoustic drum kit, as I just don't have the equipment to do this properly.

The experience has been a real eye-opener, as the drums which sounded *fantastic* in the "pro studio" sounded like they were recorded in a garage when played back in my control room.

A lot of this has to do with my expectations, as I am used to working with individual drum instruments that have *no* bleed whatsoever (totally pristine samples), and then to listen to the "real" drums in a "real" room was shocking.

I suppose I expected it to be somewhat similar to what I was used to, however I see now that was an error on my part.

Finally the question. As I now understand I need a completely new mindset to work with the real vs sampled drums that I've been used to, what's a good starting point to develop the new mindset?

My challenge is that my brain wants to dial out all of the bleed and totally separate all the instruments to get them to a point that I'm comfortable with, but I realize this in all likelihood would destroy the natural sound of the room, etc etc.

So I'd love to hear some thoughts on how to approach mixing studio-based drums...

thanks!

[bozmillar]

This is something I've been thinking a lot about actually, because I'll be moving from an apartment to a house and plan on starting the transition to real drums instead of sampled drums. I think part of the problem is that sampled drums don't come "raw." They are set up to sound as crisp and tight as possible out of the box. That's what makes people think they sound good.

They require very little processing to get to the point where they sound "professional." With real drums, you just get the raw tracks with no pre-polishing. It takes a bit more work to get them to sound polished. I think the end result is that they are a little harder to work with, but you have more options on how you want them to sound in the mix, and of course, it sounds more natural.

Also, I think another reason for the eye opening is because on commercial recordings, we are used to the sound of real drums combined with samples, and it's hard to get that sound with just the drums.

[paul999]

This is a steep learning curve indeed. The toughest part is that edrums are so punchy and in your face to the point of sounding disjointed sometimes that we expect live drums to be like this to. I find the trick is to really focus on over heads first. Get them sounding good but don't destroy the track getting a punchy snare. I usually just end up compressing a little to a fair bit. Later on when you have the rest of the sounds dialed in HP the lows any where from 100-500hz to get the right balance of low end clarity while keeping important cymbal clang. When you dial in each sound make sure you line each track up for phase and try phase reversing to see if you get a better result. I usually cut an crop each tom in high end recordings to completely customize my "gate". With snare I get the top going through a compressor and eq and get it sounding good. I add a bit of the bottom mic until it feels right ( maybe phase reverse). I find snare the toughest to dial in. I am finally getting a snare I like. Don't add too much highs. If you add a lot of highs add some 120ish hz for body. It is easy to get a snappy snare but as soon as it is mastered all that gets cut off The bottom mic gets heard more. If there is room mic/s I have multiple techniques for those let me know how they where recorded.

Cheers

[midKnight]

All good suggestions, thanks guys. First off, the drums I have recorded have no room mics, but the overheads sound pretty decent, so I guess that's good enough eh?

A few observations I've come to find in working with the real drums for a few days now..

A few of the mics sound utterly useless (bottom snare, ride cymbal), I've found for the most part, I'm not missing not using them.

With some treatment, (gate/eq/compression), I've really come to love the sound of kick and the snare, in ways that's hard to define. There's a subtle thing/vibe happening with the kit overall, that's kinda missing from my experiences with sampled drums.

So far, I have a drum sound going I'm fairly happy with, without using much sampled drums for enhancement, so I think if I keep working with it, and then add in a little samples here and there, it will be very usable.

[garageband]

So I'd love to hear some thoughts on how to approach mixing studio-based drums...

After reading your account, my advice would be to "Lower the Bar". The drums should sound like a set of drums played in a room. You should be able to put on the phones, close your eyes and be able to visualize the drummer playing the drum kit. It shouldn't sound like a record. This bespeaks an odd expectation; you'd never expect a great raw vocal track to sound like anything except someone singing into a microphone in what ever kind of room they're in. Same way with someone playing an acoustic guitar. There are some instruments that, in their natural state, are insanely noisy (speaking of extraneous, non-musical noise). One is a drum set. Another is a Hammond organ with a Leslie. Hi-gain guitar amps. Harpsichords and bassoons are blessed with lots of mechanical noise.

A quick note on the extraneous mics. They sonically pull a drum kit apart. That leaves the mix engineer to reassemble it into something that sounds like a set of drums. Good call on leaving out the ride cymbal/under-snare/second kick/high hat pedal/cowbell or whatever else microphone's track.

Expect noise and chaos. We're talking about rock music, right?

[midKnight]

Originally Posted by garageband

Expect noise and chaos. We're talking about rock music, right?

Absolutely we are. For my first foray into live drums, I was smart enough to use pro talent and a pro studio (read good equipment/engineer/acoustics), to capture the drums. (To eliminate the "I did a bad job of capturing the drums variables")..

But you're right, it's all about having the right set of expectations, which I have been getting used to over the last few days I have been working with the drums.

I've actually come to like the overall sound of the drums a lot, the more I work with them.

[garageband]

(To eliminate the "I did a bad job of capturing the drums variables")..

This piece of mind can be worth a lot.

[midKnight]

Originally Posted by garageband

This piece of mind can be worth a lot.

Agreed. And it didn't come cheap either. (both talent and studio were expensive). BUT you get what you pay for, so it's worth it in the end.

[garageband]

I've actually come to like the overall sound of the drums a lot, the more I work with them.

This is funny, because I had the same initial reaction to using samples. I had a tune where I couldn't (and couldn't find anyone else, either) play well enough. So I got the sample player out and thought, "These things sound terrible. How is anybody suppose to make music with these?" It did get better once I figured out what to do.

[rockerdude]

Just curious, how much did you pay for the talent(drummer) and the studio time? How many songs?