I hate compressors!

[Electriclight]

Everytime someone asks you to defend a position you invoke your First Amendment rights. I guess that's one way to handle it.

Are you sure? Rupert Neve says his primary objective in equipment design is just that.

Just what? Destroying harmonics? I'd love to see a link to this. The whole harmonics trick is avoiding the creation of unwanted odd order harmonics. Maybe that's what you read?

I dont trust a plug-in to work like an outboard comp unit. Doesn't the raw signal hit the AD converter before the plug-in? I just havent heard any "In the box" vocal sound I like. I cant imagine anything pro is done that way,

Those are your words, not mine. I'm pointing out that they are wrong. That's REAL dialogue, both sides, all that stuff, remember?

[the.blode]

It seems hating compression is a new bandwagon to be jumping on. Unless you plan on engineering and mixing classical music, or have no professional ambitions in production of other music, compression is absolutely necessary to produce competative mixes.

Peterpav, I have nothing against you, but this thread is really silly.

I totally agree that compression looses an instruments harmonics, they have too, unless you use a multi band version, but I've found they sound un-natural too.

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Harmonics aren't 'lost.' use of filters can reduce Harmonic content, mic placement, type, preamp type, recording medium and a thousand other things can alter harmonic content, and so can compression. BUT unless your compressor has frequency response that is nowhere near flat (which never happens, because it wouldn't sell) - compression will only ever increase harmonic content.

Rupert Neve's comment was probably something more like "I design my gear so as not to introduce discernable harmonic distortion" - which is a completely different thing to reducing harmonics. Gear designed specifically to reduce harmonic content would likely sound REALLY dark.

I just havent heard any "In the box" vocal sound I like.

I guess you haven't heard any records you like of the past decade?

Vocals are one of the instruments most easily mixed in the box. I know plenty of guys who track everything on tape except vocals.

There is a reason software plugs are so popular these days, and it's not because they're fashionable (name 5 people who say they would rather software to hardware.) Software plugs are popular because they're highly capable musical tools, in the right hands. There are occasions when hardware might be preferred (probably because it's generally more colourful and introduces levels of temporal and harmonic distortion where modern DSP effects of this nature are essentially nill,) but I doubt you will be able to find a single PRO mix engineer who believes that hardware is absolutely essential for a good mix - except maybe Steve Albini.

Watch this..... ALL PLUG-INS SUCK" see no harm done.

It may seem like that, but what if someone wanting to learn about mixing were to come and read this thread, leaving with the impression that they needed to buy thousands of dollars worth of hardware in order to create a quality mix. Is that constructive? Is any of this constructive?

I don't care if you hate plugins. However, saying 'all plug-ins suck' is as useful as it is true - not at all.

Also, it would be very useful in your argument if you had some knowledge of the ideas you were discussing.. Read around, there's plenty of information.

[PeterPav]

Now we're talkin, The comment "All plug-ins suck" was made purely to point out I'm just stating my opinion. Brandon once wrote "guitar emulation sucks" flat out. This has turned into a technical fact finding investigation. Discussions here include opinions all the time. What I meant by "lost" is I cant hear them after using some compressors. You can find whatever faults you want in my knowledge and opinion. Still They are what they are. I request this thread be removed forever from this site on the basis of my own incompetency. P.S. Your right on about the past decade.

[brandondrury]

Alright kids. I've had to clean this one up a bit. Let's keep this fun.

I love compression. If I had to give up EQ or give up compression, I'd probably give up EQ....probably.

I have no problem with calling out audio engineering abuses, but you've also got to carry about under abuses. It's a common cliche to say "turn down the gain on that guitar" often without hearing it. Granted, most guy are using too much gain, but that doesn't mean that it's applicable in every case. There are definitely instances of not enough gain for the desired tone. The same can be said for compression.

Hard ass compression on the 2bus is a fairly new phenomenon (the last decade or so) and there are instances where it is terrible. There are instances where it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The radio has been doing this since the invention of FM (maybe before) and people don't make a huge issue out of that.

I think this thread has taken an esoteric view with a bunch of theory but to really highlight any of the "sides" you'd have to pick out an actual audio example to add some water to it.

For the record I probably have said something to the effect of "guitar emulators suck". I'd be surprised if I didn't qualify it with "in my opinion" or something to that effect. Regardless, I've had to eat my words on that one, because the day is coming sooner than later where I do an album with nothing but emulators.

I totally agree that compression looses an instruments harmonics, they have too,

I don't agree. In fact, my main reason for buying a Distressor is adding harmonic content. Even when using a clean compressor, one of my principal motivations is to bring out a bit more harmonics. It depends on how you use it.

It would be pretty hard to single out and pick off harmonics. You would have to have a super computer and a really surgically sharp equalizer.

From a precise statistical standpoint this is correct. However, when you take something like the URS 1970 and turn it's release down to 10ms it certainly adds harmonics in the upper midrange. The same with pretty much any "character" compressor.

The widely accepted practice is to record totally dry and then apply effects, including compression, during the mix.

This is my general recommendation for beginners. I do really like my Distressor. I control dynamics a bit, but mostly I'm looking to add a bit of character. It's subtle. However, there is a reason that an LA-2A will set you back $3k+.

I think my conclusion is that "Outboard" always means Analogue and "Plugin" always means Digital.

It's getting where the difference between the two is becoming pretty slim. I posted an A/B clip of my Distressor when I first got it verses a Waves Rcomp and I was actually embarrased by the lack of difference.

This whole hardware / plugin compressor debate is something I want to tackle when the book is finished.

Brandon

[PeterPav]

Yes, I admit the Neve article is over my head. Yet Mr. Neve refers to pleasing and frustrating harmonics often in the interview. I could be wrong, but a compressor has an amplifier (analog) and any amplifier changes the tone of what goes through it. (the way I understand him). If you dampen the harmonics on an instrument does that not change the tone? Here is all I want to say. I think some home audio guys sacrifice the tone of their tracks by overcompressing thinking it makes the mastermix sound louder and fuller. In my opinion it sounds the opposite.

[the.blode]

I could be wrong, but a compressor has an amplifier (analog) and any amplifier changes the tone of what goes through it. (the way I understand him). If you dampen the harmonics on an instrument does that not change the tone?

The first sentence is about right. Only very high quality digital amplifiers come close to a completely linear input/output (what comes out is perfectly proportionate to what comes in.) but in 90% of the cases where the signal is discernibly distorted (Note that this doesn't mean clipped) it will be due to harmonics ADDED to the signal by the amplification process, not TAKEN from the signal (which could only happen if the amplifier had a ridiculously skewed frequency response.

ALL gain stages will distort a signal. High quality amplifiers (unless they're designed to be 'colourful') generally less than cheaper ones. If you think compressors are going to destroy all of your sounds, then so are all modulation and other dynamic effects, filters.. they all involve amplifiers.

Here is all I want to say. I think some home audio guys sacrifice the tone of their tracks by overcompressing thinking it makes the mastermix sound louder and fuller. In my opinion it sounds the opposite.

I have no problem with this, but I don't agree.

Compare (or even create) a rock drum mix that has been compressed in no way to a drum mix on an album like Karmacode by Lacuna Coil or Obzen by Meshuggah. The uncompressed drums will be eaten alive by the size of the comparison.

[Vulconizer]

Our ears are natural compressors, if I understand it correctly. Kind of puts a whole new spin on it, eh?

Distorted guitar is already compressed in a way as well, if you choose to look at it like that. Just purely looking at some distorted guitar waveforms, that is.

Compression is not evil, in and of itself, I believe.
People who misuse it are evil though, and should be subjected to badly recorded disco music at ridiculously high volumes.

Oh hell. What am I talking about? Maybe they are just trying to learn how to use it and are already subject to hearing badly recorded stuff? Could be.


I know I am.

[fmw]

Originally Posted by the.blode

The first sentence is about right. Only very high quality digital amplifiers come close to a completely linear input/output (what comes out is perfectly proportionate to what comes in.) but in 90% of the cases where the signal is discernibly distorted (Note that this doesn't mean clipped) it will be due to harmonics ADDED to the signal by the amplification process, not TAKEN from the signal (which could only happen if the amplifier had a ridiculously skewed frequency response.

ALL gain stages will distort a signal. High quality amplifiers (unless they're designed to be 'colourful') generally less than cheaper ones. If you think compressors are going to destroy all of your sounds, then so are all modulation and other dynamic effects, filters.. they all involve amplifiers.




I have no problem with this, but I don't agree.

Compare (or even create) a rock drum mix that has been compressed in no way to a drum mix on an album like Karmacode by Lacuna Coil or Obzen by Meshuggah. The uncompressed drums will be eaten alive by the size of the comparison.

There is no question that an amplifier will modify the input signal to a degree but reality is that, if it is a modern solid state amp operating below the clipping level that modification is inaudible. It has nothing to do with the price of an amp, by the way.

[PeterPav]

a rock drum mix that has been compressed in no way

again I didnt say in no way What I said was over-compressing.

[TonyB]

Originally Posted by Electriclight

I don't want to stifle any REAL dialogue... but a harmonic is just a different frequency mathematically related to another (primary) frequency. It would be pretty hard to single out and pick off harmonics. You would have to have a super computer and a really surgically sharp equalizer.

If you're just saying stuff for the sake of debating yourself, fine go at it. But I think you'ld have a hard time backing the claim about compressors losing harmonics. Compressors are a function of volume not frequencies. Even multiband compressors only filter into bands and then compress.

Likewise your comments about plugins don't hold water unless you are one of those guys that can only record on tape, only listens to LPs, and refuses to listen to anything on CDs, MP3s, or any digital formatted audio. There are TONS of professionally produced songs on the radio at this moment made with the help of software compressors. You don't have to like them, but please don't say it's not done or it's not possible.

Good points, and I surely can hear the "not-so-judicial use" of compression on today's music; not to mention the latest trend in vocal effects....Autotune!