How do you make your mixes sound louder

[Andrew07]

How do you guys make your songs around the same volume(WITHOUT mastering)? Everytime I bounce songs down they're all kind of different volumes and I wish I could make them more consistent

[richiebee]

How do you guys make your songs around the same volume(WITHOUT mastering)? Everytime I bounce songs down they're all kind of different volumes and I wish I could make them more consistent

All songs should NOT be the same level. However, if you're writing pop and bound by the louder is better theory, then use a master limiter/compressor. That should mash all your songs to the same level.

Watching the levels on mixdown will also help you get the same highest output if that's what you want.

Getting the levels right between songs is ultimately part of mastering.

Rich

[a33]

Unfortunatly a lot of it is in the mix

Use the best compressor/limiter you have and shave about 3db off. This should help give you a uniform sound/ perceived volume.

If you are sending to mastering make sure you send an un compressed version

[DogpitStudios]

(WITHOUT mastering)?

That is mastering essentially

Ben

[brandondrury]

Yeah, I agree.

One of the main jobs of mastering is to make the songs sound consistent from a volume standpoint. Either you will have to do this yourself or you will have to pay someone else to do this.

I find that I get more consistent with experience for whatever reason.

Brandon

[dach]

Just curious... are the cuts you are having problems with from the same band, using the same instrumentation and tracked the same as the other cuts or are you thinking all your mixes from everywhere should end up at the same "volume"?

Also remember loudness/volume and level are not the same thing.

chuck

[Andrew07]

dach, i do mean loudness instead of volume level. Thanks.

Most of my bands can't afford to have their stuff mastered, so the only thing I'm trying to do is make the mixes louder.

This is for all different kinds of bands from rock guitars to acoustics even to an old man whistling(did that yesterday)

Right now I turn the monitor level knob up to where I know a mastered song in a simliar genre sounds and then try and make my mix around that level. Also if I was sending the song away to get mastered,I wouldnt do any of this

[richiebee]

dach, i do mean loudness instead of volume level. Thanks.

Most of my bands can't afford to have their stuff mastered, so the only thing I'm trying to do is make the mixes louder.

This is for all different kinds of bands from rock guitars to acoustics even to an old man whistling(did that yesterday)

Right now I turn the monitor level knob up to where I know a mastered song in a simliar genre sounds and then try and make my mix around that level. Also if I was sending the song away to get mastered,I wouldnt do any of this

If you use a Windows based VSTi compatible host, I would strongly suggest you get hold of the Kjaerhus classic series plug-ins - http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/products.php
They'd be excellent even if you had to pay for them... but you don't - they're free. The Master Limiter is an excellent tool to put on your master output. Keep the threshold level as close to 0 as you can to boost your output while keeping the effect virtually unnoticable.

[Andrew07]

unfortunately im running osx

[dach]

Try to consistantly monitor at the same level... (get an spl meter) ... unless you are checking something
try to do a little comp/limiting before you hit the box...
if recording 16 bit slam your convertors, if 24 bit... take it easy and leave some headroom
Try to gain stage your digital stuff like you would analog stuff

Referring to your reference material can play a big part in the perceived loudness... if your mix is nowhere near there to start eq wise, get the best mix you can then try some 2 buss eq... that's much better than eqing the crap out of every track... then you can go back and make minor adjustments to individual tracks if necessary. I'd rather add a dB @ 4k once rather than doing it 12 times

if your mix's "level" is too low but you are always peaking up close to the red, try bussing stuff to subgroups ie: drums and compressing them a little more

you can use a limiter/comp plugto bring your levels up if they sound better than your master fader... remember you don't actually have to do any gain reduction unless needed.



hope this helps,
Chuck

[brandondrury]

Honestly, one of the biggest reasons that my mixes weren't loud enough was due to the fact that the drums were just turned up too loud. I'd recommend you doing a mix with the drums just slightly too soft and see where that gets you.

Brandon

[richiebee]

unfortunately im running osx

If you don't have any mastering software, I'd strongly recommend investing in either DSP Quattro or Bias Peak. DSP Quattro is the budget one of the two - it has its bugs, I'm sure Bias does too. But it is good professional software.

I way prefer to master using this (or Sound Forge on PC) than trying to export a final master from my sequencer/multitrack recorder.

Mastering doesn't have to be farmed out... if you have a good budget, it should be, but if you're on a tight one, there's no reason why you can't do it yourself.

Rich

[Andrew07]

Richie, what do you like better about Bias than editing in your sequencer?

How are you guys getting your mixes close to the level of commercial stuff WITHOUT mastering?

The past week I've tried Waves' L1, L2, L3, and Sony's Inflator on the insert of my Master Fader. The Waves stuff seemed to create too much distortion, and I couldn't raise the the Output on the Inflator enough without it clipping. When I did this my mixes still had a good amount of headroom(peaked at -3db or so)and my Master Fader was set at 0.

[richiebee]

Richie, what do you like better about Bias than editing in your sequencer?

How are you guys getting your mixes close to the level of commercial stuff WITHOUT mastering?

The past week I've tried Waves' L1, L2, L3, and Sony's Inflator on the insert of my Master Fader. The Waves stuff seemed to create too much distortion, and I couldn't raise the the Output on the Inflator enough without it clipping. When I did this my mixes still had a good amount of headroom(peaked at -3db or so)and my Master Fader was set at 0.

I actually use DSP Quattro or Sound Forge... I've never used Bias -- I've just heard that its really good.

Anyway, I realise that wasn't your point.... I like to use mastering software to master my tracks. It just makes more sense to me. The jobs of trimming, EQing, analyzing, levelling, fading, compressing, limiting, normalizing... it just seems much easier to do in software that was designed to do it. It can be done in your multitrack application, many of my friends do this. But a mastering engineer would work with a stereo wave, why shouldn't I? I feel as though I have more control over the final result with mastering software.

If you're not gettng good results with the waves stuff (and probably the Sony stuff too), your mix isn't good to start with. Look for something that dominates - bass is often an issue - if your speakers don't have good low frequency response, you may well be compensating on your master output, or in the mix itself... as Brandon mentioned, maybe drums could do the same thing. Regardless of what is causing it, if you have an imbalance in your mix, a limiter will not work to its full potential. Can you post a sample for us to take a look at?

If your mix peaked at -3db when your master fader was at zero, increase your master fader by 2db. Bingo! Now, you're only 1db under. Personally, I NEVER master to a higher level than -1db. It ensures you don't have problems with output devices (CD players and the like), that read your data as higher than it might be.

Regardless of whether you do it yourself, or farm out to a specialist, your tracks have to be mastered in order to maintain a consistency that they should have.



Rich

[Andrew07]

You can listen to a guy I'm recording now at his myspace www.myspace.com/jeffbonilla . The songs are all pretty different level-wise.

[richiebee]

You can listen to a guy I'm recording now at his myspace www.myspace.com/jeffbonilla . The songs are all pretty different level-wise.

The mix balance is really different in each. I think they're similar in overall level...

I would go back and re-mix... pick the one that you like the best (they all sound fine to me, but I'd probably pick number two but bring the electric guitar down a shade), and balance them all to similar levels. Put them end to end in a single track and balance them out so they are consistent with each other - that's the key.

Are you supposed to hear the metronome in #1?

[brandondrury]

Steve Albini said on the video that I posted on this forum somewhere that levels are 99% of the game. He is 100% right.

Most of us are trying to nail some certain tone at mixing. We think of individual elements too much. By simply limiting yourself to volume for a while, you'd be amazed at how much better your mixes will sound. I have phases where I try to fix everything and spend 20 hours mixing a song. Then when I come back to it, I start over, do as little as possible, and come out with something way better in about 20 minutes.

Put serious thought into each and every level choice.

Also, I've found lately that the best EQ is often the volume fader. If something is a little harsh, knocking it down .5 or 1dB will often fix it. If you take an evening and really play with levels, you'll learn a lot. It's amazing how differently a mix can sound with the bass up .5dB and the guitars down .5dB. Things like this make a huge difference.

Brandon

[Andrew07]

richie, haha no youre not supposed to hear it. that was before i really learned how to tame the click. we're going to retrack the guitars.

Where does the term 2 buss come from?

How do you guys who do it yourself "master" your own mixes?

Yesterday when I was trying to "master" a song I couldn't get it loud enough without it clipping. The mix peaked at -4/-5 db on the master(with its fader at 0) . So I put a Rcompressor on the master and compressed with 2:1 ratio with slow attack and release times and then I put a limiter after it. I boosted about 4db on the limiter with it's output set to -0.2 db, but after I bounced it all down, the mix still wasn't quite loud enough.

[dach]

Steve Albini said on the video that I posted on this forum somewhere that levels are 99% of the game. He is 100% right.
Most of us are trying to nail some certain tone at mixing. We think of individual elements too much. By simply limiting yourself to volume for a while, you'd be amazed at how much better your mixes will sound. I have phases where I try to fix everything and spend 20 hours mixing a song. Then when I come back to it, I start over, do as little as possible, and come out with something way better in about 20 minutes.

Put serious thought into each and every level choice.

Also, I've found lately that the best EQ is often the volume fader. If something is a little harsh, knocking it down .5 or 1dB will often fix it. If you take an evening and really play with levels, you'll learn a lot. It's amazing how differently a mix can sound with the bass up .5dB and the guitars down .5dB. Things like this make a huge difference.
Brandon

This is just a great post. Everyone who reads this forum no matter their experience level should memorize it. I just printed it for those days when my head is stuck up my ass and I can't make it happen.

Get your "sound/timbre" when tracking (as much as possible)
When using eq during mixing, use predominately shelving and band pass filters.. if you need it though, crank it till it's right, forget what it says on the scren... close your eyes
get your basic levels and pans (pan and level are your best eq) develop the basic groove
switch to just one speaker (mono, not 2 speaker mono), balance, eq, compress in whatever order
don't be shy about bussing stuff together and using compressors to "shape" the groove
switch back to stereo and it should be happening
add effects, ride those levels and swells
back to mono
tweaks
call it a day...

chuck

[Geisler]

Yesterday when I was trying to "master" a song I couldn't get it loud enough without it clipping. The mix peaked at -4/-5 db on the master(with its fader at 0) . So I put a Rcompressor on the master and compressed with 2:1 ratio with slow attack and release times and then I put a limiter after it. I boosted about 4db? on the limiter with it's output set to -0.2 db, but after I bounced it all down, the mix still wasn't quite loud enough.

If the peaks are at -4 db, the first thing you can do is turn up the master volume 4 db. If drum hits are causing your peaks, a faster compressor attack should help (maybe even as fast as possible). Setting the compressor threshold properly will help too.

Here's my general home-brew methodology. It might presume you're using editing software like Sound Forge. Hopefully those with more knowledge/skill/experience than me can point out flaws and suggest improvements. So far multi-band compression has escaped me.

The first thing you should do is fix the DC offset on the individual tracks--before adding effects or mixing or anything. Don't do it later on the whole song. DC offset is a recording issue--converting the analog sound to a digital representation on the computer. So, you need to correct the individually recorded tracks--do this first before touching the recorded tracks in any other way. A high quality sound card should not need this step. You can use your favorite software to scan the files and see what the offset is.

Then I usually compress some of the individual tracks before mixing. Vocals are usuall all over the place. Bass can be too. For vocals I am usually more pleased with the results when I adjust the volume on segments of singing manually, rather than relying on finding the right combination of compression settings. There is usually a lot of crap on vocal tracks that I like to clean up manually too (breathing, coughs, "P"s, "S"s, room noise, etc.). I don't use too much compression on drums, though it is helpful on individual kick, snare, and tom tracks to get the levels nice and consistent. I don't usually compress individual overhead tracks. It seems to just make the cymbals sound funny. Guitar usually doesn't need any compression, especially if there's distorion on it. Distortion effects compress the heck out of it anyway. So, start by getting the individual tracks nice and even in volume. It will make mixing a lot easier.

Once you have a good mix, you can normailze it (Normalize using: Peak level) and see how the waveform looks. If it has a lot of loud peaks with relatively quiet music inbetween, you can compress the whole thing to reduce the peaks and boost everything else. You can either use the make-up gain in compression or normalize afterward, they do the same thing. Sometimes you end up with just a few high peaks that are holding down the volume of everything else. In that case, instead of applying compression to the entire file, I go in manually and reduce the volume of those peaks. Just highlight the peak and use Volume. The peak is probably a small fraction of a second in duration, so editing it in this way should not be noticeable. When you're done knocking down the peaks, use normalize on the whole thing.

When compressing, it's best to experiment with threshold and ratio settings to maximize perceived loudness without making the song sound noticeably compressed. I usually try to err on the side of having things a little quieter than having them sound compressed. I usually look at the waveform to eyeball where the threshold should be set at. This is a judgement call, but you're basically trying to compress the high peaks down to the level where most of the other peaks are. Maybe that sentence doesn't make sense, but that's what I call threshold. Then I usually start with something like a 4:1 ratio and adjust that up or down to find the sweet spot alluded to earlier in this paragraph.

Then again, I'm just a hack.
;D

By the way, don't try to make it sound like stuff on the radio. Radio stations add a lot of compression (it helps with the broadcast signal). Try to make it sound like a good CD that has a similar style of music (similar instruments, etc.). You're not going to get a bluegrass song to sound like Korn.

[brandondrury]

My "pretend mastering" setup is always changing, but right now I have an Rcomp which I generally set to about 3dB of compression. I hated the way it sounded with a fast attack time, so I usually end up at about 12ms attack time or so. Sometimes more. Somtimes less.

I then use an L2 to catch just the loudest peaks. I use this VERY VERY SPARINGLY.

Brandon

[Andrew07]

The thing is my mixes sound ok...or at least as good as I can get them now. I compress a good deal and there aren't any crazy peaks. I mix at around -3/-4db cause I thought that you're supposed to leave enough headroom for mastering. And if you simply raise the Master fader up 3 or 4db, won't that take away your headroom?

What Im going to try soon that I've never done before is import a song of a similiar genre and compare that to the song im trying to "master" in my sequencer and then adjust loudness accordingly. I just wish that I knew my recording setup as well as my car stereo. I know when my volume in my car is at 12 everything sounds good and is at a comfortable listening level, and when it's at 16 it's comfortable at a loud level.

[brandondrury]

I just wish that I knew my recording setup as well as my car stereo.

k
I came an inch from running a 100 foot RCA chord out to my car just so I could listen in a familiar setting. Give it time. Pay your dues and you'll get there.

Here's a trick that I do to make sure my levels are decent:
I set my mastering levels at very very quiet levels in my monitors. Why? Because that's the best way to know if something is too quite...because Iwon't be able to hear it!! I play a major label recording and set my volume knob to so that it is very quiet. Then when I import my stereo mix, it is usually way to quite. Then with compression (and makeup gain, obviously) I bring the level up until I can hear it well clearly. Somewhere in there the L2 is catching the peaks.

From a levels standpoint, you can't go wrong when you have your monitors super quite. Quite is one of the few things your ears have trouble adjusting to.

When you learn what spot to to set the volume on your monitors, it becomes a quick process getting the mixes loud.

Now liking the sound of your mixes when they have been smashed is a totally different story. You are on your own on that one!

And if you simply raise the Master fader up 3 or 4db, won't that take away your headroom?

I've never been one to worry about headroom in this situation. I don't think it matters one way or the other. Some mastering guys will say they need some room in there in case they want to boost something a little bit. That makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that they can't turn down the overall level by 1dB on their $11,000 equalizer. I think there is a point where these guys get to be such purists that they think that every volume change will result in lost fidelity. Maybe they are right, but my mixes don't have any fidelity anyway.

[richiebee]

Where does the term 2 buss come from?

two main outputs (left and right) on your mixer.

How do you guys who do it yourself "master" your own mixes?

Snip the ends, equalize, normalize, limit/compress, resample, convert bit depth, output...

Yesterday when I was trying to "master" a song I couldn't get it loud enough without it clipping. The mix peaked at -4/-5 db on the master(with its fader at 0) . So I put a Rcompressor on the master and compressed with 2:1 ratio with slow attack and release times and then I put a limiter after it. I boosted about 4db on the limiter with it's output set to -0.2 db, but after I bounced it all down, the mix still wasn't quite loud enough.

1. If it peaked at -4 or -5, it isn't clipping! What makes you say its clipping?
2. If you use a slow attack, your compressor will not stop fast transients from clipping the signal. With any track with percussive sounds, you'll want to use a fast attack. The release time should be relatively fast too, but not so fast that you notice it. If there are cymbal crashes, or even a heavy reverb, you'll need to make sure the release time doesn't cause those long decay sounds to change their decay envelope in a way that would be wrong for that instrument. If you use a compressor with slow attack and release, you may well find that you don't increase the overall level, but you do introduce pumping. You have to listen...
3. Use a compressor to raise the RMS - the overall, average sound level. Use a limiter to prevent fast transients from clipping the output. If your stereo file isn't loud enough to start with, normalize it.
4. You can put the master above 0... or increase all faders accordingly (though that might be a hassle if there's auto-fades in there... easier to increase the master).
5. If you're still not getting it, it seems most likely to me that it would be either a mix issue or an EQ issue.

[brandondrury]

If you use a slow attack, your compressor will not stop fast transients from clipping the signal.

This sounds great in theory, but as I've tried it over the years, for many of my mixes (certainly not all) the Waves compressors don't do it for me in this situation. I was at another studio recently and I noticed that compression with a fast attack was much more transparent. So maybe it depends on the plugins you use.

I make it a point to never do more than 3dB of reduction when pretend mastering. Others with different mixing styles, different mixes, different songs, different ears, and different plugins/gear may think differently.

Richiebee is right though. If you are not careful you actually make your mixes less loud if you use your compressor wrong. I've had good luck with compression times around 200ms, but again this is just me. In my situation it works.

I'm not sure what the big deal is with the levels going in. 90% of the final level that I fine tune for each song is in the output of the compresser.

Brandon