Homemade Subkick

[eptesicus]

Hey all, I just wanted to share the subkick I built. I got the shell from Precision Drum Co, lugs and heads from Tama, woofer, foam, and xlr jack from Parts Express, the stand from stuff lieing around, and the mount from Gibraltar. Everything else from Lowes.

I think it turned out rather well. The bungees look a mess, but it works rather well.

[eptesicus]

I am also thinking about stenciling something on the front head of the unit. If anyone has any suggestions, hit me up.

[jhkillam]

That looks pretty awesome. I felt like the deep punch has been missing in my kick recently so I had a similar idea as you but definately not as much creativity. I dug out my old 2x12 subwoofer cabnet from my first car and just wired one of the speakers into my Digimax pre. Isn't the prettiest setup but holy crap it made a HUGE difference in the way the drums impact the mix. Sorry that the pictures my phone takes are dumb and won't allow me to rotate them and save them properly.

[eptesicus]

damn jhkillam... no wonder it makes a huge difference, you're using a 12" diaphram! mines only 6.5". I've seen some people do that with stereo cabinets.

-Mike

[Irish614]

looks cool man, good work. I hear a lot of good stuff from Precision I almost had them design me a kit. I want to hear how well that sub kick sounds compared to the Yamaha. Do you have any recording equipment? How much did it all cost in the end?

[eptesicus]

I do have recording gear. Though most of the music I do involves instrument libraries and virtual instruments. So my interface consists of 2 input channels. Soon I shall have a digimax and a firestudio.

In the end it cost me about $150 since I had to buy everything for the project.

Due to the weight of it though, when it's on the stand, it won't stay up straight because I cannot find memory locks for the floor tom leg bracket I'm using. So I ordered the floor tom leg bracket for a starclassic kit which has the memory lock and will help hold it straight. Other than that, everything works great.

We set it up to a gretsch kick drum with a D112 and had it running through the PA system in the live room at work... It makes a difference, but the biggest difference i'll hear is when I record with it. I have a few people at work that I'm going to let borrow it and see how it sounds with their setups.

mike

[brandondrury]

You've done a great job getting this thing to look nice. All of my home made gear pieces look like total junk (personal preference mainly) so it's nice to see a piece of mechanical engineering that looks nice.

With that said, I hate to see all these pictures and no sound clips.

no wonder it makes a huge difference, you're using a 12" diaphram! mines only 6.5".

This is what I was curious about. That speaker did look small for this application.

I've tried the Yamaha Subkick. I've tried various home grown solutions. I can't say that I've been thrilled by any of them. There is added girth, but something never feels right to me. Hopefully you guys will have better luck with it.

These days I've been much happier with one mic inside the kick (By mega favorite kick drum mic, Shure Beta 91, needs to be fixed after a band ripped the wire out ARRRRHHHH) but a Sennheiser MD421 has worked out pretty damn well in this application. Then I'll put a LDC with big low end in front of the kick between 1-4'. (On one recent drum kit I made it the same distance from the snare as the overheads.) My Soundelux U99 is my go to mic for that application simply because its low end is enormous. I'm sure you could get great results with a cheap condenser too.

[jhkillam]

I've tried the Yamaha Subkick. I've tried various home grown solutions. I can't say that I've been thrilled by any of them. There is added girth, but something never feels right to me. Hopefully you guys will have better luck with it.

I'm fairly happy when the results so far. Don't have anything I'm quite ready to toss up here yet. I may work on one of the songs my band is doing some today, maybe just post a piece of the drum tracks later. I'm just lacking quality mics in general for my drums. Still using this Nady pack deal that my parents got me YEARS ago when I first got started. I think the whole set of tom/kick mics retails for like 150 bucks or something. Been getting a lot more serious about my recordings lately so I may have to hit up some good mics soon.

[the.blode]

I had absolutely no idea what this thread was about, so I had to go and research the whole 'subkick' idea. I thought I was up to date!

Pretty interesting idea, though. And nice job on construction! that looks quality

How exactly is the speaker wired up to the XLR socket?

It'd be interesting to see what kind of effect different drivers and magnet materials would have on the pickup.. I wonder if anyone's ever tried it with an electrostatic speaker .. hmm.. I'm inspired!

[jhkillam]

How exactly is the speaker wired up to the XLR socket?

I'm not sure how eptesicus wired his, but I did mine ultimate cheap style. Took the pos/neg outputs on the back of the box and just tied them to a guitar cable, isolating the tip and the sleeve with some electrical tape. Then I just plugged the other end direct into the pre on my Digimax just like I would if I was recording bass guitar direct or something like that. I just finished playing with the sound some more, it's pretty rockin. Don't think I can put an entire song on here so I'll try to cut a section out later and post it.

[eptesicus]

Thanks for the comments!

to answer your question Blode, refer to my 4th pic.

the 2 wires i used, I put little clips on the end so I wouldn't have to solder to the speaker itself. then I soldered the ends to #2 and #3 on the XLR jack. (I think those 2 are right.) #1 is the Ground I believe, which I may connect that to the speaker somewhere too.

the.blode, check out PartsExpress.com... You can find all sorts of speakers with different magnet weights, sizes, frequency ranges, etc... I chose that speaker because it was the closest one to the specs of the subkick in terms of frequency range, size, watts, etc...

Plus it was $20.

[jhkillam]

eptesicus,

I'd definately like to hear what kind of results the 6.5 produces as far as the really sub low area. I've always gotten a sound that sounds decently thick on most smaller speaker systems, but whenever I listen in my car (which has a 10 inch woofer), my recordings have never had that sub punch that I hear on all the other music I listen to. I've been a bit disappointed with the boomy factor I'm getting using the 12 inch subkick, but I think I've about got it under control. I posted a clip on the review forum of the whole song. Metal mix in progress It's not done, still some level adjustments to be done with some guitar parts and we don't have a vocalist as of right now, but a few are in line so we'll see, but the drum sound is about done imo. If you want to check it out without the other instruments let me know and I'll bounce a copy of that in the next few days.

[khaliqovision]

I think this is a GREAT JOB. It looks awesome.

I've used the Yamaha SubKick or just a plain
NS-10M speaker which is how it originated.

You went the extra mile and it shows.

Take Care,

Khaliq

[eptesicus]

Thanks Khaliq!

[anotherdrummer242]

I am also thinking about stenciling something on the front head of the unit. If anyone has any suggestions, hit me up.

Hey, if you have a band or studio logo, put that on there. I just built my own subkick today. tomorrow I'm putting on the mesh head and a black pin stripe to match my bass drum. tell me what you think... I based mine off of yours and some of my own design. I'll post more pics and some sound clips tomorrow

[hugo_zair]

It's obviously a good thing to experiment - and in the case of these sub-kick pickups (I won't call them mics) there's no harm done. I've been interested in loudspeaker design for a very long time and think it's worth pointing out a few things that might focus your diy.

Starting with the observation that a speaker chassis will never make a "good" mic. All speaker drive units have a fundemental resonance frequency. This is the frequency that once excited by an input (accoustic or electrical) they will continue to output that frequency after the excitation has gone. (think of a 1 note bass chealpo hi-FI speaker.

Loudspeaker designers(quality ones) go to great lengths to smooth out the resonance or use it in a controlled mannner to get a smooth overall output. Also the extremely low output impedance of power amps with negative feedback will provide a near short circuit to the back emf and severely damp out this resonance.

A large bass unit may have a resonance at 30Hz or lower and when close coupled to a bass drum this undamped resonance will probably be the major output. Subtle overtones will be lost due the big speakers poor response to higher frequencies.

A massive "dmmmmph" may be just right for some rock genres but the sound will be more that of the subkick rather the drum. I suspect that all bass drums will tend to sound the same when mic'd up this way

Personally I would start experimenting with a much smaller unit - such as 3 1/2" or 4" unit. The resonance will still be there of course but higher up. Some eq may well be neccessary...but more overtones will be caught by the smaller cone.

The speakers impedance will also be a factor in that a large 15ohm unit, close coupled to the drum may have such a large output that the mic pre/di box may be driven into distortion.

Now, experiment away :-)

[anotherdrummer242]

It's obviously a good thing to experiment - and in the case of these sub-kick pickups (I won't call them mics) there's no harm done. I've been interested in loudspeaker design for a very long time and think it's worth pointing out a few things that might focus your diy.

Starting with the observation that a speaker chassis will never make a "good" mic. All speaker drive units have a fundemental resonance frequency. This is the frequency that once excited by an input (accoustic or electrical) they will continue to output that frequency after the excitation has gone. (think of a 1 note bass chealpo hi-FI speaker.

Loudspeaker designers(quality ones) go to great lengths to smooth out the resonance or use it in a controlled mannner to get a smooth overall output. Also the extremely low output impedance of power amps with negative feedback will provide a near short circuit to the back emf and severely damp out this resonance.

A large bass unit may have a resonance at 30Hz or lower and when close coupled to a bass drum this undamped resonance will probably be the major output. Subtle overtones will be lost due the big speakers poor response to higher frequencies.

A massive "dmmmmph" may be just right for some rock genres but the sound will be more that of the subkick rather the drum. I suspect that all bass drums will tend to sound the same when mic'd up this way

Personally I would start experimenting with a much smaller unit - such as 3 1/2" or 4" unit. The resonance will still be there of course but higher up. Some eq may well be neccessary...but more overtones will be caught by the smaller cone.

The speakers impedance will also be a factor in that a large 15ohm unit, close coupled to the drum may have such a large output that the mic pre/di box may be driven into distortion.

Now, experiment away :-)

I've been testing it out, i've been using a Behringer BX1200. between the natural sound of the bass drum and the low res delivered by the sub kick, it sounds like a bass drum in a live concert.... best example would be the way Thrice' drummer sounds in concert. the 6.5" yamaha speaker impedance is 8 ohms with a max output of 120 watts.

I see what you mean about using a drum as mic housing, but don't you think that through the use of mesh heads, with their ability to pass air freely, the "ambient" resonance of the shell can be partially cancelled out?

I have yet to put the sub-kick through a mixer to record, but I think that it, combined with a bass drum mic with put forth the sound I'm personally looking for. I have a couple more 10" shells, and i have 3.5"-4.5" speakers too, I plan to toy with these, and see which gives the most impressive performance.

[hugo_zair]

I've been testing it out, i've been using a Behringer BX1200. between the natural sound of the bass drum and the low res delivered by the sub kick, it sounds like a bass drum in a live concert.... best example would be the way Thrice' drummer sounds in concert. the 6.5" yamaha speaker impedance is 8 ohms with a max output of 120 watts.

I see what you mean about using a drum as mic housing, but don't you think that through the use of mesh heads, with their ability to pass air freely, the "ambient" resonance of the shell can be partially cancelled out?

I have yet to put the sub-kick through a mixer to record, but I think that it, combined with a bass drum mic with put forth the sound I'm personally looking for. I have a couple more 10" shells, and i have 3.5"-4.5" speakers too, I plan to toy with these, and see which gives the most impressive performance.

I think you may have read something into my post that I didn't intend..At very low frequencies I feel that a drum shell used to hide the drive unit is largely cosmetic. In other words the driver is undamped accousticaly and the cone is free to resonate at it's natural frequency.

It's also undamped electrically due to being connected to a mixer input - or amp in you case - with perhaps an input impedance of 10K. If it was connected to an amplifier output it might see <.1 ohm which would nearly short out the back emf. But here it's basically the back emf that's being used.

There's another issue I wonder about...and that's the phasing of the drive unit when it might be used in addition to another base drum mic. Feel free to correct me, but I believe that the phasing convention for microphones is that positive pressure on the diaphram produces a +ve output on XLR pin2.

However, by observation with an AVO, positive pressure on a speaker cone produces a +ve output on it's negative terminal. So wiring the "positive" drive unit term to XLR pin2 will create a phase reversal. At the low frequencies frequencies we are dealing with, with the subkick and a mic on the same side of the drum head the effect would probably be.....significant

[tiberius]

That looks pretty cool. Have you recorded anything with it yet and what does it sound like?

[anotherdrummer242]

I think you may have read something into my post that I didn't intend..At very low frequencies I feel that a drum shell used to hide the drive unit is largely cosmetic. In other words the driver is undamped accousticaly and the cone is free to resonate at it's natural frequency.

It's also undamped electrically due to being connected to a mixer input - or amp in you case - with perhaps an input impedance of 10K. If it was connected to an amplifier output it might see <.1 ohm which would nearly short out the back emf. But here it's basically the back emf that's being used.

There's another issue I wonder about...and that's the phasing of the drive unit when it might be used in addition to another base drum mic. Feel free to correct me, but I believe that the phasing convention for microphones is that positive pressure on the diaphram produces a +ve output on XLR pin2.

However, by observation with an AVO, positive pressure on a speaker cone produces a +ve output on it's negative terminal. So wiring the "positive" drive unit term to XLR pin2 will create a phase reversal. At the low frequencies frequencies we are dealing with, with the subkick and a mic on the same side of the drum head the effect would probably be.....significant

Well, before I am able to reply to this, and be able to know what I'm talking about, some research and and learning is needed. Are you saying the phasing will be disrupted with the use of another mic?

[hugo_zair]

This is what I suspect. When connecting a speaker up as a Microphone "capsule" the terminals are marked with the wrong polarity. I just googled for confirmation of the phase convention for microphones and found this: Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : Important Microphone Characteristics (see microphone phasing paragraph).

I got out a couple of speaker chassis and, with a test meter on milliamps range, prooved that a gentle inward movement (positive pressure) produces a NEGATIVE output on the red/positive terminal.

So, the diy subkickwired red > pin2 would be polarity reversed compared to a convential mic. If they were side by side some subtraction would occur at frequencies they could both respond to.

[anotherdrummer242]

so, when using the speaker as a pickup, the wires need to be reversed when soldered to the 1/4" or XLR for output to a DI box and mixer?

[hugo_zair]

so, when using the speaker as a pickup, the wires need to be reversed when soldered to the 1/4" or XLR for output to a DI box and mixer?

If I'm right...yes. ...It should be easy for anyone that has built a subkick to do a test. And perhaps someone else can chip in with their thoughts on this.

[anotherdrummer242]

what foam did you use? I've been searching online, and the only foam I seen to find is the acoustic foam you put on studio walls. For now, I used the same padding/foam that was in the speaker cabinet with the now subkick speaker.

[brandondrury]

so, when using the speaker as a pickup, the wires need to be reversed when soldered to the 1/4" or XLR for output to a DI box and mixer?

Is this that big of an issue? I use my poloarity buttons on my preamps or in my recording software all the time...especially when dealing with low end.

Brandon