Help Layering Metal Guitars!!!!!!

[general_ak47]

Okay. I am looking at a new approach to recording our guitar tracks. I have enough knowledge on recording guitars and such. But i am looking for some suggestions from some of you who also record Metal.

I used to layer my guitar tracks in my other band and never really liked the way it sounded so i scrapped that.

My new band is recording our first commercial album ourselves and I wanna broaden my horizons.

What I am looking for tone wise would match say, In Flames, At The Gates, Soilwork, and Strapping Young Lad.

I have a Randall 4x12 (200 w) with a Randall head (120 w) and a Peavy Classic 50 4x12 combo tweed amp (200 w). I will be using a 12 channel mixing board with an Apex 435 (large diaphragm) studio condenser mic for micking the amps.

I know that sometimes layering can really take away from the overall tone, so i want to avoid that. Now with the amps I have what route would you take and what would i wanna eq it to to get the tones for the style i was going for??

Thanx for any help you guys can give!

[lolgreg]

Metal guitars... I wouldn't recommend a large diaphragm condenser on the guitars...

I've had pretty nasty luck with them, they tend to have a not so friendly top end, especially on guitars and you can blow a condenser on a guitar amp if you're not careful.

I suggest you take a good amount of time with a sm57 and move it around the speaker cone/tweak with amp controls till you find what you're looking for. The best luck I've ever had was with dual dynamics (a 57 and a senny e906) in an equilateral triangle from the speaker cone. No phase issues whatsoever and a great combo of tones. Your amp has to simply own for the kind of music (metal) you're recording. I would invest in something like an FJA modded 5150 or go drop some real bones on a Rivera K-Tre, Bogner Uberschall or other great amp. The amp is arguably the most important thing in a guitar's signal chain aside from the player him/herself.

-Greg

[general_ak47]

I appreciate the input, but my amp right now is widly used by metal guitarists as well as used in the studios on their albums..Dimebag used them throughout most of his career.

If anyone else can suggest some tips with the gear I have that would be great. The money that we have left to spend is going towards mass producing and pro packaging the finished product. I have never had any problems with the mic and will keep my eye on it for signs of problems!

[lolgreg]

Originally Posted by general_ak47

I have never had any problems with the mic and will keep my eye on it for signs of problems!

So stick with the Randall... It's not that a microphone is problematic, it's more so that it is "the wrong crayon" for the job. The only way you know which mic you REALLY like best is by trying several. I've tried dynamics, condensers and ribbons and I find that ribbons and dynamics yield the best sound for metal guitars. People (such as Brandon) may disagree that the multiple mic setup is a lot more troublesome than a single mic, but my best results have been with two-mic setups. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd love to know what it is.

-Greg

[Xplora]

Which generation of SYL are you going for?

City through a nice monitor setup shows one big thing about the guitars - they "sit" about an inch from your ears, everything else is behind them. Big vibrant EL34s cranked combined with mahogany Explorer and EMG81 is a unique sound, same as the live Metallica sound from the Justice tour.

I personally don't like solid state amps, and the sound you are talking about strikes me a tube sound that has been brutalised and pushed during the studio process. What Dimebag actually recorded his early albums with is a bit of a difficulty - his hands played an enormous part of his sound (listen to clips of him using the whammy bar, he had an incredibly signature tone I could never copy myself).

Personally, I believe that 90% of the real magic in metal guitars is a really well done bass track, preferably done with a Spector bass (I don't know what it is, but Pantera and Nile have them, and they are the most crushing sounds out there). Get the bass right, guitar is just sugar on top. Sad But True, alllll bass guitar. Doesn't help though LOL. I really need some Spector bass samples

[general_ak47]

I am going for more newer SYL, but more Soilwork tone. I have a tube amp which is the Peavy I mentioned before. It is an all tube 4x10 combo. 50 watts each speaker.

If I was to use my Randall, and the Peavey..what suggestions as to which to use as the main tone for the track and which amp should i use to layer the track (more in the background)???

I get what you mean about bass! We have a phenominal bass player and he always delivers. I have never tried to mic bass amps as I have always feared mic blowouts. The mic I have is made to handle the bass amp as well..what suggestions on that end....we have a 200 watt yorkville and I really like the sound it outputs. I really wanna here some suggestions on whether or not to mic the amp and if so then how I would go about it.

Thanx to everyone for the suggestions so far as they all are helping!

[lolgreg]

Originally Posted by general_ak47

I am going for more newer SYL, but more Soilwork tone. I have a tube amp which is the Peavy I mentioned before. It is an all tube 4x10 combo. 50 watts each speaker.

It's very rare that a Metal guitar tone is achieved by using a 10 inch speaker. I've actually never seen a 4x10 "metal" combo amp. I've never heard of anyone suggesting using a 10 inch speaker for a metal guitar and doubt that it would deliver the goods properly. If the amp has a speaker output, I would suggest running it to a 1x12 ideally with an attenuator or a 4x12 amp. You could always try micing one of the 10 inch speakers, but trial and error is the best way to find your "ideal" tone.

Originally Posted by general_ak47

If I was to use my Randall, and the Peavey..what suggestions as to which to use as the main tone for the track and which amp should i use to layer the track (more in the background)???

I'd have to hear the amp... no one can give you a real answer till you mic both the amps up and set the eq just right. Then, you have to experiment with layering. You may want to ABY your guitar set up, input of your guitar into a box and then running it to the two amps, being played/mic'd simultaneously. You also have to see which positions/settings work best. I guarantee it's going to take you hours to see what's "best." I've experimented a lot with one amp and micing positions/mics. There are SO MANY COMBINATIONS. Currently I'm using a Senny e906 and a SM57 in an isosceles triangle from the speaker cone. The mics are around 3 inches from the speaker (no grille) and 7 inches apart.

Originally Posted by general_ak47

I get what you mean about bass! We have a phenominal bass player and he always delivers. I have never tried to mic bass amps as I have always feared mic blowouts. The mic I have is made to handle the bass amp as well..what suggestions on that end....we have a 200 watt yorkville and I really like the sound it outputs. I really wanna here some suggestions on whether or not to mic the amp and if so then how I would go about it.

Plenty of people mic bass amps: I've heard of using LG Diaphragm Condensers or LG Diaphragm dynamics (if the amp has a built in -10db pad, use it). I've heard mixing the amp signal with a DI works great too, but I've never tried it. I usually use my sansamp or use my D112 to mic up cabinets. I would suggest putting the mic on the speaker's sweet spot, as you would for a guitar amp. See how it sounds. Regardless, if your DI sounds better, keep using it. Adding a mic'd amp to it (if you're careful with the phasing) may even do miracles for your tone.

-Greg

[Xplora]

I really hate the new SYL tones, haven't paid much attention to them to be honest. They are a bit "better" but they don't have the soul of the first couple albums. Peavey vs Marshall?

As far as mixing tracks, just fire one up and see what gaps you fill running a second one. I run one Recto sound with my Bass Vamp Pro as a main sound, and I try to make a tight distorted sound with the Guitar version. The guitar version is so woolly that it rounds out the sound nicely.

So my best advice on the two amps is pick one amp as a main, and start dialling the other to complement it. Solid State is probably going to be a bit more immediate, so start with that. That said, the beautiful harmonics from an overdriven tube amp shouldn't necessarily be hidden!

[brandondrury]

Great thread, men!!

I appreciate the input, but my amp right now is widly used by metal guitarists as well as used in the studios on their albums..Dimebag used them throughout most of his career.

This is correct. Dimebag did use that Randall quite a bit. That tells us the amp is capable of sounding awesome, but it doesn't tell us if you think it sounds awesome or that it is EXACTLY what you want. I come from the school where you get a bad ass guitar rig to really scream. You get it to sound badass. Then you just slap a mic on it. (That's kind of an oversimplification, but that's the gist of it.)

When you spend years trying to capture a badass guitar sound by moving a mic in front of an amp that sounds like shit (or maybe just mediocre) and then one day you mic up a great sounding amp in 5 seconds and come out with the greatest tone in your life, it becomes brutually obvious how important the tone of the amp is vs mic placement.


Large diaphram condensers mics CAN get fizzy. That's why the Royer R121 (which totally ignores fizz) is so popular for certain metal guitars. With that said, the SM57 can also get fizzy. As long as the amp isn't too fizzy and you don't put the mic in the center of the speaker (where all the fizz is) you should be okay with a number of mics. Mic placement goes a long way to compensate for the sound of the mic itself.

Get the bass right, guitar is just sugar on top. Sad But True, alllll bass guitar.

I'm not denying the point being made here, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that guitar is just the sugar on top. Going back to And Justice For All, that album is notorious for having zero bass. It still sounds bad ass in my opinion. Of course, he's right about Sad But True. It's all bass.

If I was to use my Randall, and the Peavey..what suggestions as to which to use as the main tone for the track and which amp should i use to layer the track (more in the background)???

Here's the deal. You need to find YOUR tone. So set the mics down and really play with your Randall. Go ahead and try to blend a second amp in there just to see what it does. If you think this gets you closer to the sound in your head, use it. If it doesn't scrap it. The best way to get great guitar tone is for a guitarist (in guitarist mode) to put time into improving his tone. The audio engineering side is more about capturing that monster out in the room. So make the monster first and then capture it.

When you start to use multiple gadgetry, you introduce new issues. My best work has always been one bad ass fucking amp with a single mic on it. Some people like to use more complicated setups. I KNOW there have been amazing tones captured in the simple way and there have been great tones captured with more complex micing /amping schemes. You have to find your own way.

All I know is blending 2 mediocre tones together has never sounded amazing.

It's very rare that a Metal guitar tone is achieved by using a 10 inch speaker.

This is the kind of trick that doesn't leak out too much, but you may incredible surprised. The open back nature of the amp is the bigger problem here. Smaller speakers can be bad ass!

[lolgreg]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

This is the kind of trick that doesn't leak out too much, but you may incredible surprised. The open back nature of the amp is the bigger problem here. Smaller speakers can be bad ass!

I didn't even catch the open back part, that's probably not going to cut it. I've never tried a 10 inch guitar speaker for anything other than bass. I guess I'm going to have to mic up my bass cab with a guitar head running through it.

-Greg