Guitar Rig 2 vs Real, Expensive Recording Rig

[brandondrury]

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Guitar Rig 2 vs Real, Expensive Recording Rig Audio Files

As anyone who has read even ½ of one of my posts here knows, I've been highly critical of direct guitar recording for a while now. I've noticed that more and more talk has been centered around the dramatic improvements in direct guitar recording technology and I'm hearing this on tunes posted in Recording Reviews . So, I figured I would give it a spin in a head to head contest with a few of my amps.

Note: I'm not biased on this test. To be honest, I wanted to say “This $200 plugin replaces my entire amp collection”. I WANT to be able to make robo recordings with $2 in gear! Did it happen? I'll let you decide. I want to make it perfectly clear that this test was not a big deal. I probably should have played it tighter. I probably should have taken more time. I didn't really plan on making a shootout. Oh well, here goes.

Guitar – The guitar is an Agile Telecaster. Why Telecaster? Why not! I'm playing high gain rock stuff here. I realize a Telecaster is not the most obvious choice for this. Oh well. To make matters worse, these strings are robo old. To make matters even worse, you can hear just how poorly the intonation is out when I hit the higher chords. So what does this prove? Nothing! I'm not trying to prove anything. I was goofing around and not taking this too seriously. Maybe I should have restrung it. Maybe I'll do a better shootout with more direct guitar gadgets if people like this one.

Amp Simulator – Native Instruments Guitar Rig 2. Why only this one? Because it's the only one I have. Technically, I didn't really pursue this one anyway. It came with Komplete 3 which I purchased for the synths and samples. I normally am too busy pulling crap out of my highly raised nose to ever actually purchase a direct guitar product.

Amps – The amps in this contest were all my amps I own. Peavey 5150, Rivera Knucklehead, and my trusty '71 Marshall Superlead. I considered using my Fender Bronco also, but maybe I'll save that for the next one.

Cabinet – My trusty 1x12 former floor wedge on stage turned into Celestion G12H30 mega cabinet. I REALLY like this cabinet even though it looks like death. I don't use a grill! My Marshall JCM 800 4x12 cabinet has been collecting dust for some time now.

Mic – I used my Royer R121 with this. It's clear that if I wanted more fizz than this (for metal I definitely would) I would need to make some changes. With that said, I need to remember that my Mackie's tend to hype of electric guitars a little bit so guitars come out sounding a tad boring and a tad too smooth on computer speakers.

Preamp – I used my Trident S20 preamp. Not much to say there. Gain up. Done.

Converter - I used my Mytek AD96 converter on the mic'd signal. The direct guitars were tracked through the Hi-Z input in my Presonus Firestudio.

The Results: Scroll down.

[brandondrury]

#1 - Real 5150
#2 - JCM 800 simulator in Guitar Rig 2
#3 - Real 1971 Marshall Superlead 100 watt
#4 - Dual Rectifier simulator in Guitar Rig 2
#5 - Real Rivera Knucklehead set brighter
#6 - Real Rivera Knucklehead set darker
#7 - All 6 amps (12 total tracks) combined in a way that sounded best at the time.

- Does layering sound better?
People make a huge deal about layering electric guitars. Was their a dramatic improvement between #7 and any of the individual elements? I found the difference to be bigger on my studio monitors than on my computer speakers. I really liked blending the 5150 tracks and the Marshall Superlead tracks. They both seamed to be doing opposite things.

- Mid Scoop Confusion
People make such a big deal about "scooped mids" but the problem with this is it covers such a broad range. Guitar amps have tone controls that are voiced dramatically different than other amps. Metalheads typically grab the mid control and pull it way down. In this little example, the 5150 had it's mids on 10. Still at this setting it has far less in the boxy midrange than the Marshall Superlead or the Rivera when set to be darker. I thought this was interesting.

- How does Guitar Rig 2 compare to the real thing?
I would say that Guitar Rig 2 is not bad at all. I'd be curious to see how Guitar Rig 3, Amplitude, and Wave GTR 3 compare. I think that Guitar Rig 2 is fizzier than the rig I used, but they did not have a Royer R121 model in Guitar Rig 2. It may have been more "scientificeee" if I had used a 57 or 421 like the simulation ins Guitar Rig 2 did. Well, this wasn't science. I was comparing my way verses their way. This is the result for better or worse.

I was interested by the fact that the Telecaster sounded most Telecasterish through the DI thing. I could hear the strings more. I'm not sure what that means or what that is worth. I felt that the DI method had more fizz and a mudness to it. It's not exactly mud, but there is something kind of indistinct in the plugin that I didn't hear on any of the real amps.

With that said, I think that Guitar Rig is not a bad product for anyone who can't crank up their guitars or doesn't have all this expensive crap. I'm impressed. On the right album I could see myself using Guitar Rig without much question. I've certainly recorded worse guitar sounds!

In the end what is more important is what you think. So what do you think?

Brandon

[jd99gt]

Brandpn,
great job getting the site back up and running.
First things first-
I finally got my 5150 back from the shop and it sounds great, no gimmicks or special mods, just sounds brand new.

Now, I listened to all the recordings that you;ve made here. My favorites were the Real 5150 (#1), and The Rivera Knucklehead (#5).
As you may know, I have been recording direct for the last little while, using either my gnx3 or guitar rig/ amplitube/ impulses etc. While the sound of the digital modules are getting much better, they still lack a certain thickness and body that you get from a real tube amp. I think I was able to hear that too in your recording samples here.
I think I am going to do my own shootout with some of my equipment and let you guys be the judge. Here's the kicker, I will use impulses for everything. Even for the 5150, I will use only the preamp out direct into the fast track usb with an impulse.(its too late to crank up the amp anyway)!!
once again.
great job

[sunset]

ahh, Good thread Brandon. I kinda agree.

Due to budget etc I've been dragged kicking and screaming into hard disk recording - and now direct recording as well. Mannn, between Guitar Rig2, Amplitube2 and Amplitube Jimi Hendrix I've gotta say I've been baffled at how cool it can sound. It pretty unbeliveable, and like you said - it's certainly possible to sound a hell of a lot worse with amps/heads/mics etc!

Guess we've all just gotta just approach it like...these are just tools. Same as amp choice, speaker choice, mic choice...there's no right or wrong if it gets you where you;re going.

With a 3yo and (as of just this week) a newborn living in the house - and trying to finish all the guitars & bass for an upcoming album - I have pretty much no choice now! It's gotta be direct. I'll keep you posted with how it all goes.

[BushmasterM4]

Interesting on the 5150 and scooped mids. I recently bought a used 5150 412 cab. It needed some TLC (cosmetic), and after some cleaning and spraying the cab (in places) with truck bed liner, it looks great. Truck bed liner spray paint works pretty good on cabinet areas were the tolex is missing or torn. The torn parts I glue down first, then spray. Anyway, I use a Peavey JSX head and a Peavey XXX cab as my main amp. And I noticed when I plugged the 5150 cab into the JSX that the mids are way more reduced (scooped) compared to the XXX cab. Must be that "Metalhead" thing when Peavey designed the enclosure.
It was interesting the difference between the mids on these two cabs. I know both the XXX and 5150 use Sheffield speakers, not sure if they are the same.

[thesilentdrummer]

Awesome "shootout" (regardless of what you say). In my tally, I was able to pinpoint "fake" or "real" correctly, except for the Marshall amp (not including the mixed track, that was a low blow). Like you said, I could see the sims being useful on some songs, but i wouldn't reach for the sim first, if possible, that is.

[brandondrury]

The old Marshall is what it is. In the right circumstances, it's a big mean amp. In this situation, it wasn't the right choice.

Brandon

[lolzgreg]

5150 owned!

ahahaha

The knucklehead dark is real beast too!

DI still don't cut it for me.

-Greg

[brandondrury]

Maybe if I get sick of cussing this damn new server and fixing RecordingReview bugs, I'll slap some strings on my Jackson Kelly with EMG 81s and try to do a real metal thing with this.

The knucklehead dark is real beast too!

There are so many tones in that amp! It gets used on at least 80% of the sessions I do in one way or another. It's probably the best $600 I've ever spent in my life!

Brandon

[lolzgreg]

It's probably the best $600 I've ever spent in my life!

Brandon

You got a good deal, ahah. Don't you ever fear that some of your sessions will start sounding a bit too similar if everyone's using your amp (despite tonal changes), especially since you swear by the dead center royer technique on the floor wedge?

-Greg

[brandondrury]

Don't you ever fear that some of your sessions will start sounding a bit too similar if everyone's using your amp (despite tonal changes), especially since you swear by the dead center royer technique on the floor wedge?

Not at all. When you factor in different bands, songs, guitars, players, etc the tones are usually dramatically different. If I listen back, I can't remember which amp is the Rivera on any specific recording.

I finished a modern rock, prog, metalish kind of thing. One guy used an Gibson SG and Boogie Recto-verb. Another guy used a PRS and a Rivera. I don't have a clue which one is which. I can't remember who was doing what.

Of course, it needs to be said that when I say the Rivera ends up on so many recordings, it may only be a clean part or something.

Brandon

[lolzgreg]

Oh okay, just wondering. I haven't really done enough recordings to justify the statement I put out, but I'm glad someone who has could. I know a studio that my friend interns at in New Jersey records a lot of hardcore bands and on their hardcore sampler, every band sounds the same (not just the music, all the tones).

-Greg

[brandondrury]

Well that's a different situation. When you take similar bands who want similar tones with similar instruments with similar arrangements you will get a cookie cutter sound.

I have a VERY random way of working. I intentionally don't measure mic distances (for later recall), I don't use presets, I don't write down amp settings, etc. It's just my style of working.

I try something new every session so even if I did have a template, I'd still mess it up with SOMETHING different.

Brandon

[man called aerodynamics]

I've been using Guitar Rig 2.0 for a while now since I live in an apartment, and can't record with my Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue.
Recently I had a chance to get the Fender over to a friend's house and get my guitars going through the tubes again.
Obviously, the amp is probably the BEST choice if you're looking to capture the feel of a vintage tube amp. The Fender, pushing through the air, sounded rich and beautiful.
That said, I would recommend Guitar Rig 2.0 for anyone interested in laptop recording. It is THE solution to getting good guitar sounds. In particular, the emulation of vintage amps (Tweeds, Vox, Fender Twin), is fantastic.
I have been tweaking more and more on GR 2.0 to get the sounds I want, and I have to say I have been able to emulate some good classic rock tones with the amps/cabs/fx of Guitar Rig. And that is the key. You have to invest some time with the plugin to switch out amps, cabs, fx...in addition to mic selection and placement. If you're willing to put in the time, you can find THE sound for your needs. And I have been messing around with the Guitar Rig 3.0 demo....and it is just slightly better in amp emulation than 2.0. So much, it had me reviewing my back statements to see if I could purchase it!!
I am a vintage type guy....nothing replaces tubes and wood for me. But for home recording, this is the way to go. I am not really a high gain metal type player, but (my opinion)...it appears that its easier to get those sounds quickly with not much difference between what I hear recorded on metal records and what it coming out of GR 2.0.
All in all, I would love to be like the Black Crowes and have access to boutique amps, high end mics, vintage guitars, etc, etc. But I don't. I am sitting at my desk trying not to annoy my girlfriend....If this is your situation then GR 2.0 is the solution. Add Ezdrummer and a midi controller, and you have the tools to make a great home recording!
er...ya gotta have some songs first, though
Brandon, keep up your excellent work!

[brianinogang]

I would recommend Guitar Rig 2.0 for anyone interested in laptop recording. It is THE solution to getting good guitar sounds. In particular, the emulation of vintage amps (Tweeds, Vox, Fender Twin), is fantastic.

NO it's not. theres a better program. use the ReValver mkII. i'll admit, guitar rig is a very flexible guitar program. lots of presets to begin with. BUT the cabinet/amp impulses used in this program is not that great. Thats why a lot of people are saying that there's still something wrong with DI if compared to real time recording. with ReValver, you could create great impulses. I mean "create". not just select amp types and cab types and mic and its placement. i mean you could create your own.read about it at guitarampmodeling.com. you can create impulses depending on what type of sound you want. in guitar rig you only have the mic placement, amp simulator and cab simulator which are all given presets. you'd still mix with given presets which is why it had its limitations when it comes to emulating guitar sounds. If you want to use guitar rig with your own impulses, i suggest you get the plugin called voxengo boogex. or kefir. run it with guitar rig on your DAW. the sequence should be guitar rig to boogex or kefir. on these plugins, you can load your impulse. just close off the cabinet presets on the gr2. i mean close it (by clickin x on right top of the cabinet window) to have a fizzy crappy guitar sound and then use the boogex/kefir (with your impulse of course) as your external cabinet. sounds great compared to basic gr2/amplitube. try it. you'll be much happier without disturbing your girlfriend. anyway i hope this helps. by the way conventional way of guitar recording is still the way to go (for me). thanks everybody and keep good music flowin. heres a DEMO to let you know what i men

[brandondrury]

I've got to admit, I have not been able to get these kinds of sounds by tinkering with Guitar Rig 2. There is something not-quite-there about Guitar Rig 2, but very usable in situations where outstanding rythm guitar tone isn't a priority.

I was shown this Revolver mkII just yesterday and for the heavy stuff it wins hands down. That sounds like a good real amp to me!

Brandon

[man called aerodynamics]

Downloaded demo of Revalver this a.m.
Wow!
I have to admit that compared to GR 2.0, this is a better emulation.
I will have to do more comparisons, but at face value it does sound better. My real testing will come when compare GR 3.0 and Revalver MK III. Again, I am less interested in high gain settings and more in classic rock/blues tones, so that will be my real test of its capabilities.
Well...another thing here...I noticed that the academic pricing for Revalver is significantly LESS than any discounts that Native Instruments offers.
So for me, that is a REAL selling point. In fact, its a little less expensive that GR 3.0, so really that should settle it for anyone, right?
Thanks for the info re: this awesome plugin!!!!

[brianinogang]

no problem bro. i'm glad to share what others have shared me in this forum. and to add about the revalver, i just discovered that you could sequence the tubes themselves in this program. im not so sure about this but it looks like it when i tried it. i think maybe it also has some features to set the wiring diagram of amps(not sure ok) to make it dual or triple recrifiers. i saw some wiring diagrams there. try it if you havent people. the preset used on the demo i posted was a triple rectifier mesa boogie impulse used with the kitty power amp preset(wich i think is also mesa coz it looks similar). i think they create impulses by recording real time and interpreting the signals to be simulated by ReValver afterwards. if you're into the technical aspect of building amps, then this would be a great program to get busy with. as for me, im just on the listeners bench.hehe.(i'm not an employee of the makers of Revalver just to be clear)eheheheh. anyway glad to be of some help(if ever i was..) see ya guys!!!! real time amp recording is still the best for me at least. thanks

[brianinogang]

my first time recording DI. i used guitar rig 2 and loaded an impulse. these things really get closer to real time recording by the day. i played with "play that funky music" as a sample track to demonstrate guitar rig 2 combined with an impulse. this is all unprocessed. it's the rawest stage of this clip.

[lolzgreg]

my first time recording DI. i used guitar rig 2 and loaded an impulse. these things really get closer to real time recording by the day. i played with "play that funky music" as a sample track to demonstrate guitar rig 2 combined with an impulse. this is all unprocessed. it's the rawest stage of this clip.

It sounds pretty darned good to me, but it could just be your playing

Smooth wailing Brian!

-Greg

[adorian]

Anyone using PT's AmpFarm? I found I liked that one the best out of most of these, but I use it for different stuff. If for example I get a knucklehead client that insist he records his awful sounding amp - I reamp via AmpFarm from a DI track I recorded billed as a "safety track" or adjust their awful grinding tones to at least bring some semblance of dynamics.

I had a christian rock band client with a "pastor-producer" that insisted I record their awful sounding DI boxes, one was POD-something, the other the GT-8. Their soundman insisted they use this live via the board, and their "pastor-producer" insisted I go with their soundman's advice. I objected several times, even tried to tweak the respective emulators, but nothing good really came out as far as I was concerned. The result was devastating - I can't describe how nasty this sh*t was. Anyway - I managed to salvage the mix session with some clean settings such as Fender Bassman and Marshall Plexi via 4x12 speaker sims. They weren't the best sounds but at least the mixdown was fine.

[brandondrury]

I had a christian rock band client with a "pastor-producer"

Ironically, this is what I would call PURE HELL! Then again, it can be funny watching someone totally unqualified shoot himself in the foot. Now that I think about it, I think I want to do one of these!

Brandon

[brianinogang]

yeah i agree brandon. that kind of situation sucks BIG TIME. adorian, i havent tried ampfarm. id give it a shot. thanks for the info.

[adorian]

Ironically, this is what I would call PURE HELL! Then again, it can be funny watching someone totally unqualified shoot himself in the foot. Now that I think about it, I think I want to do one of these!

Brandon

Imagine Creed but Christian...okay correction...more Christian, with a guitar duo that could barely play above power chord level, somewhere along Kurt Cobain skill level, but both with the idea in their head that they can play leads like the Iron Maiden guys, drummer that couldn't drum much, a bassist that kinda barely kept it together and a singer that was almost talented. Luckily I came in during overdubs on this session so I didn't have to track everything, did some of the mixing but walked out and let someone in the lower echelons handle it. The "pasducer" said their last CD sold really well, they sold 1200 copies at $20 a pop. I thought about playing church rock at that stage

PURE HELL is an understatement The sounds - I can't really describe it them. Kinda close to a buzzsaw, square wave distortion, just thinking about it hurts my ears. I kinda survived that session by putting sound isolating headphones and play it at the lowest level possible while the band had it cranked up in the control room. Recording "talent" like this makes me question my career choices.

Anyway - long story but Ampfarm saved my a** that day as probably would've reamping. At least Ampfarm was right there as a plugin. Now I use Amplitube LE in Cubase with the same idea, shaping some not so cool sounds.

[doug941]

I have used Marshall and fender amps for years. I also have a 5150.
Nothing sounds like a loud tube head pushing a 4x12 cab hard.
It's the way the wood vibrates, the way the air is bellowing out in explosive blast like a great set of lungs with something to say!
There something about playing lead when you can feel the cabinet vibrate the guitar in your hands! It's one of life's greatest pleasures.

That being said, I also have Guitar Rig and Amplitube and I love them.
Sometimes in the recording process you envision a certain guitar part in your head. Not just the part but the tone and voice of the part, the personality to bring the notes to life. The software has helped me to become familiar enough with each combination of effect, amps and speakers, that I can get the sound from my head to the track in minutes.

The world is now a better place.