To Go Pro-Tools Or Not..

[1 M.I.C]

So basically im really looking to upgrade my home studio. I Do Rap 90% of the time, ocasionally i have do some guitar and vocals for some friends. I Really thought i had my solution, And now im really torn.

Originally I Was looking to Get the following Interface/Pre Combo:
Tascam Fw1082 - As an upgrade to this little m-audio fast track pro, and i was really intrigued by the fact that i would now also have a controller, also it looks nice.. which would help me sell some studio time.
UA LA610 -, after reading alot about it i figured if im gonna jump for a pre i might as well get this with a compressor,especially after reading the good reviews on it.. and i thought i'd have a good front end, i mean the LA-2a Is known to be good, and thats what this one is based off...

Thats About 2k Right there. And another factor is i could get them both on Americanmusicsupply.com and they offer monthly payments, as well as warrenty and all that..

Then while reading about the UA LA610, i started hearing how the digi002 with the BLA mod had really good pre's, and there was alot of arguing that the pre's on the 002 were right up there with the LA610, as well as some other much higher priced pre's... and i dont doubt that... i think i started to froget how subtle the differences can be..

so i got to thinking.. maybe i could go pro-tools...

i Could grab a 002 off ebay for 900 or less, get the BLA mod for 600, and thats $500-$600 less then my original idea.. and i could say "i use pro-tools" which unfortunantly WILL draw in some local artists in my area., plus i'll have 4 good pre's... and a control ... i dont see any reason why not..

untill i realized i'll have no warrenty.. ill have to save up ALL the money which will take a couple months...

i dunno.. hard choices.. so thats why i come here.. looking for advice? opinions? experience with either gear?

[brandondrury]

i could say "i use pro-tools" which unfortunantly WILL draw in some local artists in my area

This could be a factor in your marketing approach. However, I think it's over rated. Bands / Rappers/ Artists / whatever listen to mp3s on a website, word of mouth from their friends, and cds that people sell around town. I wouldn't expect some idiot in his basement with even a Pro Tools HD machine that no one has ever heard would get more business than a kid doing awesome work on Audacity.

Then again, I'm sure there are some retards who get really excited by the name Pro Tools as if there recording has any better chance of not getting ruined than with any other piece of hardware. If you think this is significant, go with Pro Tools.

You are talking a lot about upgrading to high end mic pres and such. What are you studio monitors? Send me a screenshot of the frequency response curve of your studio monitors with a test mic at the head position. You are throwing your money away on fancy gear if you can't hear what you are doing. None of your clients are going to give a shit what pres you use. Not one person who has ever paid me has gave a damn about the little knobs I twist when I adjust gain. However, I've had many complain that the mix sounds great in the control room and doesn't sound the same in their car. Luckily, less and less people are saying that these days now that I got my monitors tremendously improved.

Brandon

[Charlie_M]

I think you have two separate issues there. One is a business decision the other is a music/audio/technology decision. Unfortunately they can't really be separated in action (you simply make a choice picking one path or the other) but you are perfectly free to think about these different aspects separately, and that may be helpful.

First I would look at the business side and ask: Are you very sure that going to PT is going to generate more business for you? Try to estimate how much. Be realistic. Look at your run rate today, and ask how much (in dollars per month) you'd realistically expect it to go up. I have no idea about the revenue side of any of this stuff - the music is a hobby for me and I think of it as a cash sink so I never looked at generating revenue from my modest rig - but I do have a lot of experience analyzing ROI (return on investment) in my day job.

Do you think it's likely that it'd generate enough extra business to pay for itself in a year? 6 months? 3 months? If it's less than a year, then from a business standpoint it's a complete no-brainer. Not only would you end up with the additional free cash flow to go and buy the LA-610 down the road, but you'd have a lot more contacts and word of mouth about your excellent skills (which I'm assuming you have; the truth is that greater visibility/exposure/opportunity only really helps if you can shine once you get it).

Now.. the music/audiio/technology part. If this here is what you're talking about, that thing is supposed to be really nice. To me that would be tough candy to turn down. If I, as a hobbyist, was already set up with something like sonar or cubase and got to a point where I was ready to put $2k into additional gear, I doubt very much that I'd spend that on trying to change horses. But that's just me as a hobbyist. Business is different.

If it really is true that you can get incremental business because of the brand, then.. whether it's valid or not, it's money in our pocket and that's hard to walk away from too.

The thing is this calls for some VERY clear thinking and good estimates of what kind of incremental business you're going to actually generate by putting a digidesign logo on your marketing materials. Could be a lot I have no idea. I'm just trying to look at it from a business point of view and encouraging you to be careful with those estimates. After all it could be zero too, right? Suppose a guy across town has an HD rig and gets across the idea that your PT LE rig isn't REAL protools, and he drops his rates just to crush you and others like you. Could happen. That's the thing about marketing.... none of it has to really be true, so people are free to generate and promote whatever kinds of perceptions benefit them.


Good luck whichever way you go. Also, whichever way you go, do yourself a favor and keep a log of your thought process and reasoning, as well as the financial estimates you based your decision on. That way if whichever path you choose fails to deliver the benefits you had hoped for, you can go back and do a "postmortem" on the decision process and subsequent execution and determine where you went wrong, or which assumptions turned out to not be correct.

Charlie

[Baron]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Then again, I'm sure there are some retards who get really excited by the name Pro Tools as if there recording has any better chance of not getting ruined than with any other piece of hardware.

An acquaintance of mine sunk a small fortune (more than my house!) into a nice red Italian sports car. It looks great and turns heads and the chicks dig it.
One of his friends bought a new Subaru WRX123&y$@%^whatever, for about 1/7th the price and it will blow the doors off the Ferrari from start to flat out. It also out corners and out brakes the Ferrari.
The thing is that that car does not turn heads unless somebody is looking to see who the idiot is with the boost gate making farting noises. Very few chicks get impressed by a Subaru.

I suppose the point I am making is that, at this point in time, PT is the Ferrari while Cubase/Sonar etc, are Subarus.

I like Charlie's suggestion about logging and post-mortem (if the need arises) and Brandon is preaching the gospel when it comes to the importance of monitoring.

Good luck which ever way you go.

Baron

[1 M.I.C]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

You are talking a lot about upgrading to high end mic pres and such. What are you studio monitors? Send me a screenshot of the frequency response curve of your studio monitors with a test mic at the head position. You are throwing your money away on fancy gear if you can't hear what you are doing. None of your clients are going to give a shit what pres you use. Not one person who has ever paid me has gave a damn about the little knobs I twist when I adjust gain. However, I've had many complain that the mix sounds great in the control room and doesn't sound the same in their car. Luckily, less and less people are saying that these days now that I got my monitors tremendously improved.

Brandon

Well at first the "high-end pre" thing was peaking my interest.. but like i said i forgot how subtle the difference can really be especially like you say, theres weaker links in the chain, but i mean the 002 mod DOES interest me if its 4 good pre's because theve been described more-so as being very clean, which is good to know if i want to try out say some dynamics that have lower output.

andi have a pair of yamaha hs50m's which have been translating my mixes well from what ive heard, i dont have a chance to try it on TOO many systems. i wanted to add a sub for general listening and not mixing but ive been thinking just maybe i should save the money and prepare to spend it on some treatment if i move everythign into a friends house with a couple of rooms we could dedicate it to.

but can you show tell me how to do the test mic head position thing lol.

[1 M.I.C]

And Charlie_M that was a good post man, had me thinking alot.

I Think when it comes down to it, either route would increase the money i make, altho business is not the MAIN reason i wanted to uprade it did become a factor on what i was going to upgrade to once the 002 came into play. I DO record myself more then i record others, but latley the ration has been getting alot closer to about 50/50.

I Dont Market myself by an engineer by any means, i'm more focused on improving as an artist, because i take it a little more then a hobby. but i do offer studio time and a seperate rate if they want me to mix it. and have been getting decent money on the side for the low low price i do charge. and i havnt had any complaints yet (knocks on wood) but at the same time, im running more of a PROJECT set up so i dont have any serius business.. hopefully i can change that.

[richiebee]

Your problem is budget. You're on a tight one which doesn't mix well with a good protools set up. In order to collaborate, you need to be running industry standard plugins and keep your Protools up to date. An LE system is unlikely to go far in being collaboratively viable. An HD system is generally prohibitively expensive for starters, but remember that upkeep too...

Many sequencers can output OMF files, which with a plugin, ProTools can import. So, if you use a sequencer that can output OMF files, you could advertise yourself as a ProTools compatible (or ProTools friendly) studio. That would satisfy the marketing without lying. And at the end of the day, once you have the customer in the studio, they're unlikely to care what you're using, and if they do, all you have to do is explain how its compatible.

[brandondrury]

the truth is that greater visibility/exposure/opportunity only really helps if you can shine once you get it

Very well stated! In other words, if you aren't cranking out great recordings it won't matter what you are using.

The thing is this calls for some VERY clear thinking and good estimates of what kind of incremental business you're going to actually generate by putting a digidesign logo on your marketing materials.

The Digidesign logo means nothing. The layman has absolutely no idea that Digidesign makes Pro Tools. The Pro Tools logo may mean something to somebody though.

I suppose the point I am making is that, at this point in time, PT is the Ferrari while Cubase/Sonar etc, are Subarus.

Good point. Of course, we all turn out heads when we see a Ferrari. (At least we do in Missouri). No one turn heads at Pro Tools on a screenshot.






Obviously, the Ferrari stands out much more than the WRX. On the other hand, Pro Tools doesn't look any cooler than Cubase. Of course, it all depends on how you handle the marketing end.

i mean the 002 mod DOES interest me if its 4 good pre's because theve been described more-so as being very clean, which is good to know if i want to try out say some dynamics that have lower output.

A "clean" preamp doesn't have a whole lot to do with noise level. My Vintech 1272 is a colored preamp and it has no noticeable noise regardless of the gain settings. In fact, I keep the gain wide open when possible and reduce the input level most of the time.

business is not the MAIN reason i wanted to uprade

Write that down in your journal thingy that Charlie_M recommended.

Do you expect the pres in the 002 (even after modded) to sound noticebly different than your M-Audio mic pres? I don't know the answer to that. I just know that my clients can't hear the difference between the two.

And at the end of the day, once you have the customer in the studio, they're unlikely to care what you're using, and if they do, all you have to do is explain how its compatible.

Very well said. Everyone always said we are going down to "Drury's" to record. It wasn't Echo Echo Studios. It wasn't the "Vegas" studio. By the way. I didn't see my friends for several years because I was so busy using Sonic Foudry Vegas. No artists care what you use as long as you can make them happy on their budget.

Brandon

[1 M.I.C]

"No artists care what you use as long as you can make them happy on their budget. "

True/\

Thats been the case so far, and i dont expect it to change.. Well Good Job Guys Yall Hit me With Some Good Knowledge.. Alot of people as when they call me about what i use and i do explain i dont use pro-tools but those same ones have come by anyways and are continuing to do so.

I was mainly considering pro-tools beacuse i figured it wouldnt make my music any worse, but yeah it would limit me as far as what i can use with it, and being that i definantly would be pushing for a HD system ...ever... i realize its not the route for me, im sure i could have alot more flexibility and still have good results with anything else.

which ive known all along lol i guess jus the whole "i use pro-tools" thing kinda sparked my interest..

[brandondrury]

Alot of people as when they call me about what i use and i do explain i dont use pro-tools but those same ones have come by anyways and are continuing to do so.

You have to have a pair of balls to not have Pro Tools these days, but you have to have a pair of balls to make a great recording anyway (this includes girls). I've found that being open honest, opinionated, confident, honest, and loud (when necessary) make all of these problems go away.

i figured it wouldnt make my music any worse

Depends. Dumping $500 on an OMF Export could be spent on a Shure SM7b, Kel HM-1, a case of beer, and taking the woman to dinner and a bad movie. The cost is the problem. I'd rather have the free OMF Export, 2 mics, and get my woman off of my ass.

I'll let you know when I find something that Cubase can't do.

Brandon