Getting drums to sound good.

[MetalDave]

I have dealt with so many drummers I could puke! Great Guys all of them I have dealt with so far. The easiest is my son so far... 2 reasons:

1. I am his dad and he listens.
2. He is using the digital kit I bought him LOL.

He truly wants to be the best drummer in the world... His only problem is, he thinks Joey Jorgenson or whatever... the drummer from slipnot is the best in the world now. I keep trying to tell him I don't care how fast you can play, I want to hear a groove. something that makes you tap your feet or bob your head. I can sit down and hit a bunch of drums really fast too. But I had to force him to use the drum tutar built into the kit I bought him. I figured I paid $850 for pretty much just that! it makes him stay in time with a light as a metronome. As you play and get right on time with the machine it lets you speed up. It sort of forced him to do 2 things....

1. Keep good time.
2. Learn how to play slow on time. I also taught him some arm twisting manuvers. I call it that because I don't believe the drummer should alway use the same hand to hit the snare or the high hat. It makes for an interesting feel.

Ok enough about making the drummer be good. Now lets try to make the drums sound good. All drums come from the factory sounding very ringy. I agree with one thing. It is easier to tune your drums with them sustaining alot during tuning. I don't think they sound good when they keep ringing until the next time you hit them though. I like to deaden the drums.

I have always had better luck getting good tom sound without the bottom heads on. 2 reasons... always 2 reasons? isolation. I like the mic inside the tom. and osilation. I like to only have to worry about one head being in tune. Actually I just remembered the 3rd reason... deadening control. I have heard dead ringers... They don't really do what I want. I have seen alot of drummers put a strip of cloth like from a towel across the bottom of the top head and then put the head back on. this is uncontrollable. Usually they end up too dead. Ok now it is time to laugh. The best method I have come up with so far is... Maxi Pads. Yes I said Maxi Pads.... I tape them on the underside of the drum head in the corner where the head meets the shell. This way you can tune the drums better by simply taking off your maxi pad. then tape it back on after you get it in tune. I guess I like my drums better when they are on the Rag!

I usually use 2 or 3 mics on the snare. typically one on top and one on the bottom. I have seen a couple of snares now with a mic built right inside of them. I haven't tried this yet but would like to soon. The reason I think this will work good is because everything will be in phase. I don't like the fact the snare is being miked with sound being projected away from the mic. I preffer 2 kick drums as opposed to one because it sounds fuller and also if you have a double kick song, you can pan each kick about 30% to each side. this gives it even better seperation.

If I can, I will mic each cymbal seperate I never have used noise gates on cymbals. I have however, wraped pieces of paper around mics to get it to pick up only the cymbal it is pointed at as much as possible. It works! I usually hang the cymbal mics from the ceiling in the drum booth.on the other side of the cymbal as not to get hit by the drummer. also I will rock the cymbal to make sure when it gets hit hard it won't bang into the mic. BEFORE EVEN MIKING ANY DRUM MAKE SURE THE DRUMS SOUND GOOD...

Now as far as engineering... Brandon may not agree with alot of this but, I have the drummer or someone else but, preferably the guy who is going to be hitting them hit one drum at a time as hard as he/she will be hitting them during play. I usually boost the mids and always use a parametric eq. I sweep the mids until it sounds in tune with the drum. then I turn down the mids until it sounds full and then because I know I went a little deaf during this, I turn down the mids a touch more.. I do this with every drum. At the same time I will then add low end to fill it up some. The high end I do after everything else... usually after taking a break from it for at least 15 minutes.

Maybe I am spoiled but, I feel the need to have a good Mixer to record drums. Also I almost have to have really good drum gear ex: Pedals.... They can make so many phantom noises. As a rule (of course I am into harder rock sounds) I want the difference between the biggest floor tom and snare to sound simular to a .30-06 as a snare to a stick of dynamite for the big Floor. I have always wanted my floor tom to sound bigger than the kick. Now that everything seems to be where everyone wants it.... have the drummer hit two toms simultaniously starting with 1st ride and 2nd then 1st and 3rd and so on until you have heard every combination between toms. They should all sound good.

As you are doing this kick your kick on the offbeat of this. then snare and each tom. If everything sounds good you are now ready to record. If a certain drum sounds brassy or to bright back the mic away from the head a bit. If all this is done right, you will not even have to change a thing after it is recorded eq wise. or even mix or level wise. Please feel free to add other tips or totally disagree with what I have said. I will someday be one of the best Drum sound techs ever. I won't get that way from thinking my way is always right!

[brandondrury]

His only problem is, he thinks Joey Jorgenson or whatever... the drummer from slipnot is the best in the world now.

Oh boy! I've listened to my share of metal (Metallica, Pantera, Slayer, Testament, etc) and I never really "got" Slipknot.

I have always had better luck getting good tom sound without the bottom heads on.

I only did this once and it had more of an old school kind of Keith Moon sound. Maybe I should try it again.

I have the drummer or someone else but, preferably the guy who is going to be hitting them hit one drum at a time as hard as he/she will be hitting them during play

While desired, I've NEVER found a drummer who ever came close to hitting his drums as hard during soundcheck as he does in a real performance. Even if they think they are killing the drums in soundcheck, they are still holding back. They can't help it.

I usually boost the mids and always use a parametric eq. I sweep the mids until it sounds in tune with the drum. then I turn down the mids until it sounds full and then because I know I went a little deaf during this, I turn down the mids a touch more.. I do this with every drum.

If you are getting exactly what you want here, keep doing it. I have major reservations against adding EQ to every track, especially drums. I like to use the drum bus itself for much of this EQ and then deal with any problems on an individual basis. The biggest reason for this is phase shift. Every track that had EQ will shift in phase. When you do this on 10 individual tracks you can definitely lose something. But if you made a single mid cut across the whole bus, all those tracks would maintain their individual phase.

Also, I like the sound of applying a cohesive sound to the entire drums bus over individual tweaking.

Lastly, it's a billion times quicker to get right.

What frequencies are you cutting? Do you know?

Maybe I am spoiled but, I feel the need to have a good Mixer to record drums.

What do you feel you gain from the mixer?

I want the difference between the biggest floor tom and snare to sound simular to a .30-06 as a snare to a stick of dynamite for the big Floor.

Having just shot my .30-06 the other day, this is a lofty, but noble, goal.

Overall, you've went into pretty decent detail but you didn't mention anything about overheads, outside kick drum mic (which is more complicated with two individual kick drums) compression, or anything you may be doing at mixing. I'd like to hear your thoughts on those topics.

Brandon

[The Late Great Libido]

Originally Posted by MetalDave

The best method I have come up with so far is... Maxi Pads.

I'm a little afraid to ask...but how in the hell did you find this method out?

Good post, MD.

I like to use the drum bus itself for much of this EQ and then deal with any problems on an individual basis.

Can I ask you about the drum bus, Brandon (or anyone who would like to chime in)? I remember you saying at some point that you like to CRUSH the room mic with compression. I've been doing this and must say that its a great method. It really fills out the overall drum sound. Are you applying compression on top of that to the drum bus? Reverb? Only EQ as mentioned? Just curious.

[MetalDave]

Ok I am going to answer some questions here. I did mention overheads. I use these for cymbals and want as much seperation as possible. I take a piece of paper and roll it around the mic head as to get sound only from one cymbal at a time. I want to control the sound as much as possible. As far as Toms and equing< is that a word? I don't cut mids. I slightly boost the mids on each tom almost exactly the same other than the frequency I have found gives each tom the best tone. Like I said, I boost the mid on each drum one at a time and turn the parametric sweep knob until it compliments the tom. Then I back off the mids until I think it sounds good then back it off a little more. I do this with all toms then match the amount of boost on each tom. Never had any phase issues. I am not boosting the mids much. usually about 2-3 db.
This is why I feel the need for a good mixer for recording drums. I do not use the mixer as a mixer though. I want every drum on its own individual track when I am done. So I am more using the mixer as a seperator. I run seperate mixes to each individual musician as to what he/she wants to hear using individual monitor sends (which I haven't seen on a sound card or interface yet) and a good headphone amp (which I need to buy). The monitor sends and the control room is the only place anyone hears a mix. the channels are direct outs from each channel (post) seperate from the others. These go directly and individually out into the audio interface or sound card. As far as an outside kick mic I may use a room mic if I feel the need. This sometimes gives everything a good blend. I usually end up not using this though. I have used but don't really like noise gates. It can help to keep one tom out of the other toms tracks but I find when miking inside the tom, it seperates it pretty good.

The Maxi Pad story. we were sitting around in the studio trying to figure out how to deaden the drums. We had tryed everything One thing that worked ok was a slice of foam rubber put on under the head then put the head back on. this makes the toms hard to tune. I was sitting there and we were talking about what would be good.... I said I want something sort of fluffy but absorbant. I mentioned how could we get cotton balls to stay together inside taped to a drum. we were just getting ready to try this with some duct tape and one of the guitar players girlfriends said "how long is this going to take, I need to get some pads" I said "thats what we need is some pads" she said "are you guys on the rag?" I said "no, but we need to be." she said "OK you buy mine and I will get yours... What do you want?" She mentioned she used mini thins and I decided I wanted the thicker variety. She brought them back and I was gone to the store. I came back and they had already taped them on the top of the drums. I said that was stupid but lets see what they sound like. They sounded pretty good so we did the first drum take. I kept hearing what sounded like the drummer randomly not hitting the drum hard enough. He said it won't be a problem after I get used to the kotex being there. We tried one more take it sounded like the ringing was coming back. I came out of the control room and there was cotton everywhere! I went back to the store and bought some more and we put them inside the drums like I had mentioned before. It worked great the rest of the way through the album.
Brandon says:
While desired, I've NEVER found a drummer who ever came close to hitting his drums as hard during soundcheck as he does in a real performance. Even if they think they are killing the drums in soundcheck, they are still holding back. They can't help it.
When it comes to this you have to be like Hitler! you have to yell at them and tell them "hit the damn thing like you mean it!! Sometimes I make them play something with the band then get back to it. Sometimes I will go out to the drum booth and actually hit the drum for them once or twice and tell them "like th@t!! D@mn it!!!" They don't like other people hitting their drums so it pisses them off enough to start hitting the damn things. I have had one time a guy hit them softer during play! Ok this is getting long... I think I have said what I felt the need to say.

[MetalDave]

Ok Brandon, I guess I am not understanding the phase thing you are talking about. If I have a drummer hit 2 drums at the same time and there are no osillations then I use the midrange to basically tune to each tom... If I do this right there should be the correct phase right? as long as the eq settings are all in harmony with each other and I hear no osillation I assume there is no phase problem... Am I correct? I know that there is more to it than that but my point is "If it sounds good, do it" I have heard some really good posts on here of some great drum sounds using only a few mikes. I think alot of the time me and you, Brandon are on two different pages. You like natural sounding things, room sounds and the like. I want to have total control of the sound. No room noise each instrument on a different track all the way down to individual tracks for cymbals. You like live recordings. I can't think of one live recording I have heard that I liked better than the studio version of the same song. I tend to believe that no matter what I do, Everything is going to sound over processed to you. Maybe I will have to try and get to some middle ground on this. I am thinking from now on I will have to try to use the room mic still and maybe try to use it in the actual mix. I will have to give it a chance and try more with it. I can see where a compression limitter could do a lot of good on a drum recording. But I honestly seem to hear more phase problems within a room itself than on any mix I have control of. How do I get osillation out of the recording at that point? I started running sound seriously for bands 28 years ago. At this point I can set everything up and with no sound check, pull off a pretty good show. I would venture to say even on gear I have never used before. I can walk up to about 4 other sound techs here in my home town and say do you mind? and they will back off and let me fix their sound. Why do I feel like I am still so ignorant? I mean I know there is a huge difference between live sound and studio engineering, but some of this experience should work for me in the studio. shouldn't it?

Brandon, I am not saying it is a bad thing we do not see eye to eye always, actually it is awesome! I have never learned a thing from someone who agrees with everything I say. Thanks

[brandondrury]

Can I ask you about the drum bus, Brandon (or anyone who would like to chime in)? I remember you saying at some point that you like to CRUSH the room mic with compression. I've been doing this and must say that its a great method. It really fills out the overall drum sound. Are you applying compression on top of that to the drum bus? Reverb? Only EQ as mentioned? Just curious.

Depends on what I want. I never do the same thing twice. Compression on the drum bus can really "shape" the drums to what you are wanting. This is illustrated here. Superior Drummer 2.0 Mixer Soundclips

I guess I am not understanding the phase thing you are talking about. If I have a drummer hit 2 drums at the same time and there are no osillations then I use the midrange to basically tune to each tom... If I do this right there should be the correct phase right?

While I guess this could technically be a situation where phasing could occur, I was speaking strictly in terms of capturing the kit. The phase I was talking about was when using overheads or where any 2 mics are close enough in distance from the source to cause comb filtering.

my point is "If it sounds good, do it"

I can't argue with that one. The other side to that is "If it doesn't sound good, now what?". That's why I try to cover all of this crap.

I have heard some really good posts on here of some great drum sounds using only a few mikes.

Definitely. I've got a tune on here somewhere with just a single mic on the kick drum. It's a pretty cool drum sound, too.

You like natural sounding things, room sounds and the like. I want to have total control of the sound. No room noise each instrument on a different track all the way down to individual tracks for cymbals. You like live recordings. I can't think of one live recording I have heard that I liked better than the studio version of the same song.

Well, I'm not sure if I'm quite that far to that side of the fence, but I get the point. I feel like I've been burned by excessive close micing, dead rooms, etc. Yeah, we definitely come from different sides of the fence in regard to our approach to this.

But don't take it too far. If the room sound ain't happening and the live sound any working than we've got to do something drastic.

I tend to believe that no matter what I do, Everything is going to sound over processed to you.
Maybe, but maybe not. I was born in 1980 so I've got quite a bit of modern in me that dudes who think music peaked in the 70s won't get. I think we have different approaches on how to achieve possible similar tones.

For example, I LOVE the sound of Black Album (Metallica) and it may be the most processed album out there. I'm opening my eyes to sample replacement / layering and other modern techniques.

I guess the best way to explain my views is I've never been happy with reverb plugins on drums when I could get a real room sound. The real thing (when it is good) is IT! The trouble comes when the real thing is bad. I've experienced that too and I know you've mentioned the same.

am thinking from now on I will have to try to use the room mic still and maybe try to use it in the actual mix. I will have to give it a chance and try more with it.

Give it hell. It needs to be said that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There are a billion factors. I've had some bands where the room mic was 90% of the sound. I've had other bands where the room mic was useless.

Because I've experience a room mic that was AWESOME I put it up each and every time. If it doesn't work, oh well.

But I honestly seem to hear more phase problems within a room itself than on any mix I have control of.

DEFINITELY! Comb filtering within the room is a huge problem that must be dealt with! Most rooms, as is, won't work.

How do I get osillation out of the recording at that point?

As far as I know, it's impossible. It depends on the severity of the damage. The idea is to deal with that stuff before commiting and hitting the red button for real. While I do prefer a live, ambient room if things are shitty I immediately pull out the rockwool and the blankets. Dead is better than shitty. Regardless of the method "shitty" is the thing we are trying to avoid whether we do that with an emphasis on close micing or an emphasis on the room is irrelevant, I think.

I started running sound seriously for bands 28 years ago. At this point I can set everything up and with no sound check, pull off a pretty good show. I would venture to say even on gear I have never used before. I can walk up to about 4 other sound techs here in my home town and say do you mind? and they will back off and let me fix their sound. Why do I feel like I am still so ignorant? I mean I know there is a huge difference between live sound and studio engineering, but some of this experience should work for me in the studio. shouldn't it?

I've got a buddy who is a big wig live sound dude. He's like the head dude at 100,000 seat stadium concerts and shit. We were talking. He said he's a complete dumb fuck in the studio. In the live sound world, watching him tune a monitor is breath taking. Seriously!

I ran sound for a local band who had a nice 20,000 PA, a nice Yamaha 01V96, etc. Even though I'm fairly comfortable around the studio, I totally got my ass kicked for the first few shows. It was HELL! Nothing worked the way that it does in studio land.

So while they often utilize similar tools, live sound and studio sound are apples and bowling balls. They are from totally different worlds and the rules for each are totally different.

I think some of it comes from the battlefield you are on. Popping a cd in a player where you are using to $500,000 recordings being played on is often embarassing for the home studio guy. I know! Getting a band to sound good and clear live is very difficult, but beyond that there comparisons with the robo big boys generally end. This has been my experience. On the one gig where I think I got the live sound pretty much how I envisioned it, I'm sure it would have still sounded like shit if it could have been A/B'd with a real guy.

Brandon