Gain Staging and Safe Preamp Usage

[woodypeck886]

Hello there

I've been reading up on a lot of stuff lately, in particular the use of 'gain staging' and preamps. I've searched various forums but have tended to get a bit of a fragmented view of the whole picture.

Myself and my band are currently saving up for an API. I'm told that the weakest link in my gear just now, except for my own limitations..lol, is that that I'm using an Art pre.



Cheers

Woody

[brandondrury]

However, I'm told I'll hear the difference instantly when I step up to a higher end pre.

You are being told A LOT and not doing enough of your own listening.

Guitar / Bass Preamp Shootout Results

Presonus M80 vs Vintech 1272 Metal Guitars Preamp Shootout

My rule is post a mix in Recording Reviews. I'll tell if you are ready for a preamp upgrade. This may sound conceded, but if there is anything undesirable in your recordings, you really aren't ready for a preamp upgrade. If you have the cash and want to blow the money, that's one thing, but the web world overemphasizes the preamp by about 10,000,000.

I've always felt that preamp level settings such as High Input>>>>Low Output sounds the same as Low Input>>>>High Output.
Think about that. You aren't hearing a difference, but the web world tells you should be hearing a difference. Are you deaf? No, you are not. The difference is robo minute. Obviously in this case, cramming a bunch of signal into the preamp could overload something within the preamp. I was taught at the Micheal Wagener Recording Workshop to keep the output high and the input low (when dealing with high end preamps with very little noise). However, the difference is very subtle between the two.

In either of the described situations regarding the settings, if I crank the lower dial up, I eventually get feedback (in the case of a mic in a live situation), or buzzing if using a guitar. Therefore, which is most desirable?
Feedback occurs when the sound coming out of the speakers is louder than the sound coming out of the voice or instrument from the microphones perspective. The preamp gain is part of that, but if you crank the gain on the preamp but don't turn it back down somewhere else you are going to get a louder signal.

In the case of feedback and the electric guitar buzz, it sounds like you have simply turned it up louder without turning it down somewhere else.

Note: No offense, but this is 101 Level stuff. I take pride in this forums ability to help newbies and such. So don't get the wrong idea. Just remember that $1k preamps are 501 Level stuff. Don't get sucked into buying robo gear if you aren't ready. In the mean time keep asking questions!

I am aware Input Level is more important than the Output level due to the source's signal requiring to be boosted for recording. Is this correct?

No, it's not correct. Let me help you here. Ideally you would have started with a preamp that has just a single knob. It's called "gain". If the signal from the mic is low, you turn up the knob to boost it. It's as simple as that. There is no reason to complicate any further than that.

In the event that you have two knobs, the situation is slightly more complex. I would crank the output all the way up. If this signal is too hot for the audio interface, back off the input gain. If the signal is still too hot, then turn down the output gain. If the signal is too low, crank up the input gain. If the signal gets noisy (hiss, not buzz) from the output gain being cranked turn down the output gain until you can't hear any noise.

The RME audio interface we use has faders in its mixing software before going into Sonar7, which is what I'm currently trying to get to grips with. Does this mean that the next stages in my gain chain are the RME mixer and then the track fader(s) in Sonar?

The answer is maybe. If you choose to use the RME mixer for adjusting gain, it is part of the gain staging. I have a DSP Routing Matrix / mixer in my Presonus Firestudio. I do not use it except for headphone mixes. I would keep that out of the chain.

in order to protect gear ect, how would I set safe optimum gain staging throughout (step by step please as I'm newish) in order to bring mics and guitars up to line level?

What do you mean by "protect gear"? You mean keep it from getting stolen? Keep it from getting rained on?

Also, how does one know when things are at line level?

Good question. In reality, this is just a title. You don't have to KNOW when things are line level. It's not like we are waiting for 2 things to sync up or anything. All you need to do is make sure the signal you are capturing is hot enough in the meters of your recording software. You are making this gain staging business very complicated and it is not. Just look at the meters in your recording software. The dude smashes his snare drum, you twist the gain knob until it's peaking at about -8dB give or take. Done.

Gain staging is a bigger deal when you have a preamp, eq, compressor, de-esser, etc all in a line. You simply don't want to work any one element too hard or you get noise. In your situation, it sounds like all you have is two volume knobs. There is very little "gain staging knowledge" required.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. I'll be sure to include it in my upcoming home recording book.

Brandon

[woodypeck886]

Wow

Thanks Brandon...What a reply !

I think we're reconsidering our gear purchases just now having read some of the stuff on here anyway. We seem to have found your forum last out of the ones we've been to when we should have really perhaps gotten here first.

What I meant regarding protecting gear was in respect of clipping and the damage caused by it. Not stolen or rained on lol. I should have been more specific.

Can't wait for the book when it comes out.


Woody

[brandondrury]

What I meant regarding protecting gear was in respect of clipping and the damage caused by it. Not stolen or rained on lol. I should have been more specific.

I'm not sure if it's possible to destroy a preamp or converter from clipping. Maybe with a zillion watts running through it! If you could destroy a preamp or converter with clipping I would have done it a long time ago. I wouldnt' worry about that.

Brandon

[woodypeck886]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I'm not sure if it's possible to destroy a preamp or converter from clipping. Maybe with a zillion watts running through it! If you could destroy a preamp or converter with clipping I would have done it a long time ago. I wouldnt' worry about that.

Brandon

Thanks Brandon. I wasn't sure about that and thought I'd check.