To Click Or Not To Click, That Is The Question

[thirteeninvitations]

I spent a long time trying to figure out how to polish ye old turd, or, so I learned, how to polish nothing, and just make it shine on the front end. So now that I was somewhat satisfied with my mixes and masterings, I decided to actually start tracking some real songs.

I couldn't track any songs until I actually had songs. That's why I have spent the last 1.5 years practicing mad drums daily. Now that I wrote 8 songs I decided to track those songs.

I decided I would use a _ CLICK TRACK _ only to my astonishment, suddenly I saw how poor my drumming really is. Strange that, when practicing without a click I could've sworn my drums were kinda elite and on time and just happenin'. Now to a click track things just started to suck. The double kick parts were sometimes off. I could now sense every little flaw in my drumming. I could also change the tempo -- slow it down, speed it up - and test what the song sounds like at certain speeds. I also learned that sometimes playing certain beats at slower tempos is harder than at faster ones, and vice versa.. strange.

Well, the last session I did on drums to a click track was a little 3 minute blues song I wrote. After taking a few gazillion takes I finally had one I liked. Even then it still just sucked. How is that possible? In fact, I think I practiced to a click for an hour before even attempting to press the record button. I think it took me around 2 hours to even feel "comfortable" using the click. Only after 2 hours did it even feel right.

My question is this, unto all those readers: When tracking bands do you use a click track? And I mean, especially drums. If you do why, if you don't why. And for any drummers who might be reading this that work in a pro environs/studio sessions, do you use one, and how long did it take you to learn how to play to one accurately? Is it a skill that eventually you get really good at, and not make the recording suck?

Also, for those who use a click track, are there any tips to get a good sounding one? For an example, should it have a faster amount of clicks, or less? Because I've been using the very simplistic click and it can get me lost.. you know, just a quarter note click track.. i'm thinking maybe that's my problem? not using the 1 2 3 4 click, but a 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a hmm.. any thoughts?

I do think that playing to a click / metronome has tightened up my drum skills and made me a way better drummer, but I'm starting to question whether or not I should use one while recording.

[acidfrost]

I always use a click track unless it's live and musicians are super thight. Example of not using a click: The drummer will be a bit off here and there (which also happens with a click but that just feel) so this can unbalance the bassist and after the guitarist in his solo etc as the tempo could be fluctuating too much. In the end you'll end up with a really loose song. It's the snowball effect.

[aj113]

When tracking bands do you use a click track?

Yes.

And I mean, especially drums.

Especially drums.

If you do why,....

a)So that the whole song does not increase or slow in tempo
b)To help the drummer (and indeed all performers) play in time
c)To make overdubbing easier
d)To make the song more pleasant to listen to
e)So that the song can be locked up up to anything sequenced if required
f)Not sure about "f" but there'll be one somewhere.....

Is it a skill that eventually you get really good at, and not make the recording suck?

Like everything else, some people are better than others, but one thing's for certain, you're probably not going to be suddenly great at it without a boatload of practising.

Also, for those who use a click track, are there any tips to get a good sounding one?

Each to his own I guess. I usually use a rim shot on quarter notes.

[m24p]

I'd say until you're really super comfortably playing to a click and you hardly realize you are, you should probably play to a click. :P

After that I guess it's to taste.

Find a click track that you like, though. Beep Boop Boop Boop Beep Boop Boop Boop may not be as good for you as Boom shik ja shik ja shik ja shik Boom shik ja shik ja shik ja shik.

[bozmillar]

When tracking bands do you use a click track?

Yes.

And I mean, especially drums.

especially drums.

If you do why, if you don't why.

To avoid this:

The double kick parts were sometimes off. I could now sense every little flaw in my drumming. I could also change the tempo -- slow it down, speed it up - and test what the song sounds like at certain speeds.

It's not that the click made your drumming sloppy, it's just that you suddenly had a reference that showed you how sloppy you played. I'm not saying you are a bad drummer because I have the exact same issue, but these issues become suddenly very noticeable when you have a reference.

[aj113]

It's not that the click made your drumming sloppy, it's just that you suddenly had a reference that showed you how sloppy you played. I'm not saying you are a bad drummer because I have the exact same issue, but these issues become suddenly very noticeable when you have a reference.

Amen Boz. And I will go further by saying that these guys who protest against a click, citing some artistic BS as to why they don't want to use one, are only trying to get away from the fact that they can't actually do it.

[m24p]

Well, sometimes playing to a click makes your playing sloppier because now, not only is your tempo drifting all over the place, you're "correcting" it based on where you realize it should be, so you have more "obvious" timing issues.

__
  \
   \
    \___

becomes

__  |\__
  \ |
   \|

Excuse the poor ascii art, you get the idea. Instead of slow drift it's sharper timing adjustments, until you get used to playing to a click better.

[DanTheMan]

Robert Johnson needed a click. Lol!

I do both. If you're doing drums, most likely you are going to add other instruments. In the end, the click will make it a lot easier. If I'm just doing a 'me and my guitar' through one mic thing, the click seems to hinder the performance unless I'm doing overdubbing.

Dan

[gamble]

Hello thirteen,

You should use a tick track if you are going to overdub much. I too am a drummer on the surface, but when you get down to analysing my performance, I suck!! and when lined up to a tick track my timing errors were obvious. Try a real loop for a tick track that has an actual kick and snare beat that is similar to the beat for the song. I record a stupid 30 year old casio keyboard drum loop. It is terribly fake sounding but gives you a much better grove to play to than beep, beep, beep. If you are having trouble making it thru the whole song without crashing and burning, find a good dividing point and work on the first half of the song. When you get a good take, then work on the second half and splice them together. Or If you can get thru the song but are still sucking up the reprise for example, get a good take start to finish, and then punch in the reprise and just work on several good takes for the 20 second reprise part and piece it together. Finding a good spot to splice together drums is easy except for the fade out of crash cymbals.

Warning!!!! BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE you actually start to put a whole lot of time into a drum track, make sure it is the right tempo. The tempo that is correct for a sterile beep, tick track may not be so when you get the actual drum track layed down. For example, I found a drum loop that was seemingly the correct tempo, layed a scratch guitar/bass/vocal track to help keep my "in" the song, then layed down the drum track. So far, so good. But after I deleted the scratch tracks and now tried to record the real guitar tracks, the meter was too slow or too fast. Usually not by much, but enough to make the song drrraaaaggggg or race. There are time stretch features that can alter tempo after the fact, but BEWARE, some of these time stretch features will not keep all 10 of you tracks EXACTLY in in sync and you can start to hear the cymbals phasing and the snare can loose its transient (EXTREMELY detrimental) and the snare can start to sound like an unpurposeful flam!!! So....

Step 1. choose tick tempo loop that seems correct.
Step 2 Record a scratch guitar vocal track to keep you in the song
Step 3 Record a drum take (doesnt have to be perfect)
Step 4 Mute the tick track/scratch tracks and play guitar/sing to the drum track you just recorded.
Step 5 Analysis whether the drum track you visualize will work actually does work for the song both tempo and style or type of beat (beat could be the right tempo, but not the right kick pattern for the song etc)
Step 6 Is your beat and tempo good? Proceed to spend the time getting that beat recorded right.
Step 7 Beat not good?, go back to step 1.

What i am saying is, dont spend 6 hours recording/splicing/cutting/pasting Eqing etc a drum beat that is NOT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE


hope this helps,

gamble

[Jeronimo Mora]

I refuse to so much as PRACTICE without a click track. I'd sleep to one if I could.

[aj113]

I refuse to so much as PRACTICE without a click track. I'd sleep to one if I could.

..........is the correct answer.

[DanTheMan]

I love pracicing to a click track. So did Son House. Lol. Okay, that was a lie.

Dan

[garww]

There is a difference between a clock and music. I try not to confuse them.

[the evil]

This is a tough answer as it depends on the band, the genre, and the drummer. I would say most of the time i do not use a click with a good band. Why would you the band is tight what are you gaining by making sure they play to a click? Sometimes songs need that variance or something that a click would just screw up. On the other side of this, a lot a bands need a click. I let the drummer decide. If they are not comfortable with it why try to force a groove especially if the band has it. But then you have the band that meed it because they are all over the place. You will know these bands in minutes.

Playing to a click is rough, and people have different preferences. Personally i like kick snare kick snare.

[garageband]

I spent a long time trying to figure out how to polish ye old turd, or, so I learned, how to polish nothing, and just make it shine on the front end. So now that I was somewhat satisfied with my mixes and masterings, I decided to actually start tracking some real songs.

I couldn't track any songs until I actually had songs. That's why I have spent the last 1.5 years practicing mad drums daily. Now that I wrote 8 songs I decided to track those songs.

I decided I would use a _ CLICK TRACK _ only to my astonishment, suddenly I saw how poor my drumming really is. Strange that, when practicing without a click I could've sworn my drums were kinda elite and on time and just happenin'. Now to a click track things just started to suck. The double kick parts were sometimes off. I could now sense every little flaw in my drumming. I could also change the tempo -- slow it down, speed it up - and test what the song sounds like at certain speeds. I also learned that sometimes playing certain beats at slower tempos is harder than at faster ones, and vice versa.. strange.

Well, the last session I did on drums to a click track was a little 3 minute blues song I wrote. After taking a few gazillion takes I finally had one I liked. Even then it still just sucked. How is that possible? In fact, I think I practiced to a click for an hour before even attempting to press the record button. I think it took me around 2 hours to even feel "comfortable" using the click. Only after 2 hours did it even feel right....

I do think that playing to a click / metronome has tightened up my drum skills and made me a way better drummer, but I'm starting to question whether or not I should use one while recording.

OK, so this is exactly my experience. Exactly. Two things grew out of this. One - When you are rusty and think you're groovin' but the microphones say you're bumblin', the first thing to do is just woodshed to a metronome at different tempos, each for long periods with the mics off. You're just practicing to get your groove back. The last time I got stuck there, it took about three solid days to get It back.

The second thing that has kept me in better shape and helped me to improve quickly is to always have a room mic in my headphones. That's regardless of tracking (I prefer to have the shell mics out of the monitors: distracting), practicing, learning songs off records or whatever. That's how the microphones hear you, and everyone else, for that matter. Your level of precision will go right up if you do this a couple days. I think the benefit is generated by being able to really hear the drum set as one instrument. The last part is a bit of a guess. I haven't thought about it lot. But do intend on making a Portable Room Mic Headphone Amp. Probably need to get a metronome dealie in there somehow.

For multitracking, it makes the most sense to use a click. Otherwise, it's way harder for successive musicians to do their best.

EDIT: If a quarter note click is too slow to keep track of, I'll set up an eighth not click. Happens. Not really a big deal unless you waste lots of time trying to decide if you should try it.
Click preference: "Cowbell" on the weak beats and "More Cowbell" on the strong beats. That's really how those sounds come up in DP and I like those. It's an odd balancing act. You don't want it so short it gets lost easily but not so long that there is room to guess where it is exactly. At that point, are you playing to the center of it or the very front of it?

[saker killz]

i record the guitar with a click make it a file then inport into reaper make copy and paste 3-4 times and record over them and select the best take

[thirteeninvitations]

I always use a click track unless it's live and musicians are super thight. Example of not using a click: The drummer will be a bit off here and there (which also happens with a click but that just feel) so this can unbalance the bassist and after the guitarist in his solo etc as the tempo could be fluctuating too much. In the end you'll end up with a really loose song. It's the snowball effect.

That's what I've been experiencing on my recording. It throws everything off. I put the bass on as good as I can after the drums, then guitars to it.. it sounds "okay", but in the end, each little imperfection adds up.

And BTW, for those of you who are aware of this -- I think it is HARDER to use triggers/samples with drums. Because triggers/samples add such punch and clarity, that even the smallest timing/groove error is fatal. The "PHASELESS" secret of integrating samples with a 500hz and below cut on the overheads is like putting your drums under a microscope.

Definitely a snowball effect.

[thirteeninvitations]

Amen Boz. And I will go further by saying that these guys who protest against a click, citing some artistic BS as to why they don't want to use one, are only trying to get away from the fact that they can't actually do it.

I guess the decision is to use a click track, and really start practicing to one. If I had known it was so important I would have been doine it for a year now. But I just got my headphone power amp a little after this year started, so the ability to finally hear a click or guitars while tracking something as loud as drums is a relatively new thing to me.

I can see myself in a year from now, being the click-track-drum-master... something tells me this is a really really sought after ability.

[thirteeninvitations]

Yeahh well, uh, actualy I thought about that, and as I was going to sleep yesterday I was fantasizing about that... splicing together drum takes... LOL yeah, so I have fantasies about splicing together drum takes?

Well, for me, I use samples anyways, so I don't worry about any EQing, compressing, or any of that -nonsense- mwahaha.

In a situation with splicing together multiple drum takes, I think it would really help to have someone else working in the control room. cuz I hate having to get up, walk into other room, restart. come back into, etc.

I recall reading a guy who said he actually plays each 12 seconds or so seperate, gets perfect takes, then splices like 50 takes together to make the 4 minute long song. This guy said he also does each guitar chord seperate, and even says he tunes the guitar specifically for that one chord (I thought that's what good intonation was for, but I guess even that can fail if you really want perfection beyond imagination).

[thirteeninvitations]

I refuse to so much as PRACTICE without a click track. I'd sleep to one if I could.

Okay, well here is another question for you then... How do I not have hearing damage/ hearing loss from having a click track going beep beep beep beep beep in my ear for so long?

Cuz the other day I was using it, and I think it started to drive me insane... so insane to the point where later on in the day I went to go eat at a diner and suddenly music came on and I wanted to hold my hands over my ears.

[garww]

Okay, well here is another question for you then... How do I not have hearing damage/ hearing loss from having a click track going beep beep beep beep beep in my ear for so long?

Cuz the other day I was using it, and I think it started to drive me insane... so insane to the point where later on in the day I went to go eat at a diner and suddenly music came on and I wanted to hold my hands over my ears.

What did your Music Teacher teach you about keeping time ? It's not rocket science.

[Jeronimo Mora]

Okay, well here is another question for you then... How do I not have hearing damage/ hearing loss from having a click track going beep beep beep beep beep in my ear for so long?

Idk. I wasn't saying I BLASTED the click track. Practicing at a moderate listening level prevents hearing damage. Damage is what shows do to me haha. I swear I'm going to start performing with Peltor 25db reducing headphones.

[garageband]

I swear I'm going to start performing with Peltor 25db reducing headphones.

I rehearse or perform on the drums with headphones or something over my ears. Nobody has really said anything sideways to me about it, except idiots. Otherwise, it gets hard to hear what you're playing. My old HD280s are just too beat up. Just bought me these:

Koss4APro.jpg

[garww]

Those old Koss where pretty decent. I think you can still get pads - the internal fluid goes dry I noticed a something like a field case full of MONO fones on the Bay, recently. They might be good for tracking. The Shack carried some of the Koss products and are decent.

[brandondrury]

Well, the last session I did on drums to a click track was a little 3 minute blues song I wrote. After taking a few gazillion takes I finally had one I liked. Even then it still just sucked. How is that possible? In fact, I think I practiced to a click for an hour before even attempting to press the record button. I think it took me around 2 hours to even feel "comfortable" using the click. Only after 2 hours did it even feel right.

Playing to a click isn't something you do for an hour. It's something you do for your life.

It's really an argument of who the Time God is. If the Time God is you, the drummer, than whatever you do is right....hopefully. If the Time God is master clock, that is right.....hopefully.

If I was a drummer, I wouldn't hit a drummer without having a tempo tool behind me (click, loops, etc). I don't trust my own psychological bullshit. As a guitar player I gave up on being the time keeper a long time ago. I struggle when there's no drummer or click. I HATE IT!!!

---

---There are some bands that sound better when they just go for it and don't bother with the click. It does happen.

---There's the other 90% of bands that sound much better with the click in there.

---Trying to get a drummer who doesn't live and breath the click to suddenly be intimate with it is nearly impossible. It's a total waste of time other than for planting the seed and maybe exposing his shortcomings.

-- Playing to a click only sounds rigid when a band has gotten used to radically shifting tempos. This is a result of the songwriter thinking he's the Time God most of the time and not the drummer. No good drummer drops 40bpm going into a bridge unless they are up to something VERY technical/specific. That's not the the meek.

For multitracking, it makes the most sense to use a click. Otherwise, it's way harder for successive musicians to do their best.

The click is no free ticket to heaven in this regard particularly with a song that requires a drummer play around the click. I do think it helps overdubbing for sure, BUT that doesn't mean you won't have surprises in timing that are tough to match even with the click on.


Brandon