Best Mic Position for small room

[awaken1]

Concured.. That was my point.

[Danny Danzi]

Originally Posted by connelly73

You mention close up and I have tried that but what advice for pre amp settings like input and output. Do you mean sing close up 4 - 6 inch and turn down the input on the pre amp?

Also I have 3 settings on the mic a high pass filter (I think) a 0dB and a -10bB could I use any of these to improve my sound? I normally use 0dB.

I have two cheap pre amps an ART Tube Amp (very Basic) and a Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 with pre amp modes.

Thanks again guys for taking the time to help a complete amateur.

As far as pre-amp settings and being close up....first off, do you have a pop filter for your mic? You know, the little circular thing with a screen that attaches onto your mic stand? If you don't have one, it's definitely a good little thing to use as it cuts down on "P" sounds. If you have one, I usually keep mine about 4 inches away and when I sing, I'm about an inch or so away from it. If you can do a set-up like that, I would go for a signal level using your pre-amps that makes your channel LED light up at about -6dB.

If you go further away from the mic, you'll need to increase your signal a bit. I always try to get -6dB on my channel read-out. As for your mic modes, your best bet there is to experiment tracking a little with each one and compare which you think sounds better. For my vocals I hit the -20 pad, for acoustic guitars, I put the pad at 0dB....just experiment and see what works best for you. Good luck!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

But it does have to do with the price of the mic. If you go at a distance with a U-87 and then do the same thing with an SM-58, there won't be a difference?

One is a high-quality condenser microphone and the other is a dynamic microphone designed more to survive rough handling than for high fidelity. A better comparison would be a U87 in cardioid mode versus something like an audiotechnica 4033. Price is not an audio parameter!

We're talking about a voice in a bedroom where the dude is probably going to be fairly close to the mic.

Agreed, if you're singling very close to the microphone, the room doesn't even matter. Boz proved that well. But I was (elaborating) about recording things like an acoustic guitar, which is another common instrument people have a lot of trouble capturing in their small untreated rooms.

--Ethan

[connelly73]

Thanks Danny. I do have a pop filter and I will give your ideas a try. Thanks again guys for all the advice. Maybe you could check out my songs at my web page in my signature. I have some other questions but not really related to this so I'll start a new post. Thanks for helping a newbie.

[Vulconizer]

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

The only time you'll notice something is if you're up against a wall or have a very reflective or verb oriented room. Other than that....it's all hype.


The signal and the sound is what's most important when you don't have the right mic or the right room to do this stuff with. Should he really worry about a room sound in a bedroom?

This is exactly what we were trying to help him with. Avoid nasty stuff and you have it 90% beat, in my opinion. Nasty stuff does include being up against walls and very reflective rooms. I think you're correct. That's part of what I was trying to help him avoid.

No, he shouldn't worry about a room sound in his bedroom. That's why I decided to give the advice about deadening it in case his mic technique is one where he stays off the mic a ways doing vocals or is a foot or more away on his acoustic guitar.

Some people do use distant mic techniques to achieve what they want. I do at times. In those cases, the room can and will play a part. I like it better if it's not a bad part.

Maybe I should have asked what he currently does as far as mic technique goes, but I decided to cover a few bases in case he ever decides to try placing a mic a bit away from the source.

Part of learning, for me, is actually trying out what I read here and elsewhere and then trying out whatever I can come up with in my demented mind. I like to imagine others use trial and error as a means to educate themselves as well. Figured I'd give him a fighting chance in case he wants to place the mic in a "non-traditional" spot.

[Vulconizer]

Originally Posted by newkid

Not much bass in a vocal to worry about. Is there?

Proximity effect can generate lots of bass, but that's another situation entirely, I guess.
If the room is small enough and acoustically poor, being in a corner can have adverse effects bass-wise though, if the singer gets loud enough. How much volume would be too much? Dependent upon a multitude of factors, I'd think. Why risk it? Step a bit out of the corner, face out towards the middle of the room and belt away, if the set-up allows. /shrug

I suggested he try different spots with his mike and compare.

Ditto for rug and curtains to help minimise reflections.

Except for the corner we agree.

Yep, you did and we do.

Angled to the other corner should keep other reflections bouncing around and not coming straight back as when standing on one wall facing the other one.

Standing part way along a wall but at an angle might achieve the same result.

I don't see any build up with that configuration. Usually a group lined up with walls, or speakers lined up with walls, would possible have more build up issues. No?

Yeah, likely to have more direct reflections if you're lined up straight with a surface than if you're off-angle to it.

Wasn't knocking what you said, I don't believe, just mainly adding a couple of extras to think about.

[newkid]

Originally Posted by Vulconizer

Proximity effect can generate lots of bass, but that's another situation entirely, I guess.
If the room is small enough and acoustically poor, being in a corner can have adverse effects bass-wise though, if the singer gets loud enough. How much volume would be too much? Dependent upon a multitude of factors, I'd think. Why risk it? Step a bit out of the corner, face out towards the middle of the room and belt away, if the set-up allows. /shrug

Yep, you did and we do.

Yeah, likely to have more direct reflections if you're lined up straight with a surface than if you're off-angle to it.

Wasn't knocking what you said, I don't believe, just mainly adding a couple of extras to think about.

Did not think you were knockign anybody.

proximity effect only happens with pressure gradient mikes like cardiods, doesnt it? Not a problem with dynamic omnis.

Ever see a low cut switch on an omni?
Just the better cardioid condensors??

So if bass were an issue with the mike he could use the roll off on the low end (nto on an mxl 990 though) or use an omni.

Angled right, there should be several bounces before anything got back to the mike location. And with a square law type of attenuation by the time it got back it would be almost in the noise if the mike picked anything up. Even one bounce from a wall at 20 feet would be 6400x lower than the direct input from 6" away from the mike. A couple of bounces aroudn the room first would be negligible, especially with some curtains and rugs.

Worst case, hang a blanket on the other side of the mike so the sound does not get past it to be bounced around.

[Danny Danzi]

Originally Posted by Vulconizer

This is exactly what we were trying to help him with. Avoid nasty stuff and you have it 90% beat, in my opinion. Nasty stuff does include being up against walls and very reflective rooms. I think you're correct. That's part of what I was trying to help him avoid.

No, he shouldn't worry about a room sound in his bedroom. That's why I decided to give the advice about deadening it in case his mic technique is one where he stays off the mic a ways doing vocals or is a foot or more away on his acoustic guitar.

Some people do use distant mic techniques to achieve what they want. I do at times. In those cases, the room can and will play a part. I like it better if it's not a bad part.

Maybe I should have asked what he currently does as far as mic technique goes, but I decided to cover a few bases in case he ever decides to try placing a mic a bit away from the source.

Part of learning, for me, is actually trying out what I read here and elsewhere and then trying out whatever I can come up with in my demented mind. I like to imagine others use trial and error as a means to educate themselves as well. Figured I'd give him a fighting chance in case he wants to place the mic in a "non-traditional" spot.

You Sir, as well as everyone else posting here has given excellent advice. I didn't mean to sound like I was knocking you or anyone else, honest.

In my experience Vulcan, the little room "effects" so to speak just usually don't come into play to where they can wreak havoc on the signal, know what I mean? That's what I was trying to say about some of the cheaper mics. Because they aren't as sensitive at times, they won't even pick up any bounces at close range. Heck, there are times when "up against the wall and bouncy" may actually be a cool effect, ya know? Ever hear anyone record a vocal in a bathroom? I personally hate that sound, but it can have uses and if you have a mic in there that doesn't pick up on the reflections as well due to its lack of sensitivity, the effects it will place on the track might not even be heard once the rest of the instrumentation is in the mix.

So imagine a bedroom...you know chances are, it won't have as much of an artifact as a bathroom....I can't see where the room effects would even be heard enough once the vocal is placed in a mix with other instrumentation....especially if it's rock or something. Sure, maybe in an intimate piece vocal you would hear it, but can ya see where I'm coming from?

There's times when we use verb on a vocal track and you still can barely hear it unless the instrumentation around the vocal lets up. I'm sure you've had a few of those episodes as well. Now I picture a bedroom with lets say, severe reflections etc....I still don't think it would be enough to where it would be heard in certain mixes. If anything, the artifacts in this could literally assist the vocal track depending on how strong they come through. The other side of the coin is if we take the gal that sang on boz's track, with a voice like that we could pin her nose up against a wall in the corner and it would probably still sound pristine. LOL! So that's another thing to think about...if the vocal quality is there performance/voice wise, you're usually left with a killer track unless the artifacts are sooo severe, it makes the track un-useable....at least that's how it's always been in my experience....so I'm only speaking for myself in all of this and not meaning to against any of you guys.

[Vulconizer]

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Sure, maybe in an intimate piece vocal you would hear it, but can ya see where I'm coming from?

There's times when we use verb on a vocal track and you still can barely hear it unless the instrumentation around the vocal lets up. I'm sure you've had a few of those episodes as well. Now I picture a bedroom with lets say, severe reflections etc....I still don't think it would be enough to where it would be heard in certain mixes.

I see what you mean, Danny. I guess I've always been of the mindset that I want to practice at home those things that can sure-fire eliminate any problems that most of us run into when getting started. When I started putting those things into practice, my tracking started to improve.

You are in all probability correct when you say that the chances are minimal of the vocal being adversely affected by the room in most close-micing situations. I just like to err on the side of caution, I guess.

The other thing to look at is this - and it's directed to the original poster - ; Are you going to be mixing in this room as well as tracking in it? If so, then acoustic treatment (and there are many ways to do it depending upon the room) should be at or near the top of your list of things to do to improve your recordings. That's my opinion of course, but the room does have a huge part to play on your ability to accurately judge your mixes. I think most people will agree with me on that.

[Danny Danzi]

Originally Posted by Vulconizer

I see what you mean, Danny. I guess I've always been of the mindset that I want to practice at home those things that can sure-fire eliminate any problems that most of us run into when getting started. When I started putting those things into practice, my tracking started to improve.

You are in all probability correct when you say that the chances are minimal of the vocal being adversely affected by the room in most close-micing situations. I just like to err on the side of caution, I guess.

The other thing to look at is this - and it's directed to the original poster - ; Are you going to be mixing in this room as well as tracking in it? If so, then acoustic treatment (and there are many ways to do it depending upon the room) should be at or near the top of your list of things to do to improve your recordings. That's my opinion of course, but the room does have a huge part to play on your ability to accurately judge your mixes. I think most people will agree with me on that.

I think you're totally right in all that you say and your way of thinking shows good practice habits. All that you and everyone else said about this is definitely credible on all counts. There just comes a time when in certain situations to where some of that stuff may not be as crucial as we may think. You usually find out for sure once you try something though.

As for the room and treatment, I totally agree there but moreso for mixing purposes. If your room is not tuned or is hiding frequencies or accentuating stuff it shouldn't be, you'll never get the mix right. To me this is the most important part of mixing....baing able to make the right calls because what you hear is what you should be hearing. But to be honest Vulcan, no matter what room I'm in, I've never really had a problem tracking anything to where it made me sick or something was un-useable. I always seem to compensate or make something work...so I rarely worry about rooms for tracking believe it or not. I think the inaccuracies at times add to what's going on in that particular recording. But, if something is so bad that it's making a track terrible, then by all means there needs to be some work done. I've just never been in that position all the years I've been doing this in all the rooms I've been in. I always seem to luckily make something out of nothing.