Bad real drums vs bad sequenced drums

[brandondrury]

Would you really rather EVER listen to programmed drums?

It definitely depends on the genre, but there is a reason dance music ditched the real drummer years ago and I don't think it's the sonics of weird drum sounds that are available in MIDI land.

You can hear this in the progression of Madonna's work. The early album were definitely real drums. Somewhere there was a shift to MIDI stuff and no one seemed to mind.

Brandon

[Audio~Geek]

Most of the drums on any Marilyn Manson album are programmed.
The guitars on Superstar were all direct too.

IMO one of the best songs ever is The Perfect Drug by Nine Inch Nails. All the drums on that are programmed.

[garww]

Originally Posted by Audio~Geek

Most of the drums on any Marilyn Manson album are programmed.
The guitars on Superstar were all direct too.

IMO one of the best songs ever is The Perfect Drug by Nine Inch Nails. All the drums on that are programmed.

Ya, we really owe alot to those mad scientists like reznor, rundgren, eno, frip, kraftwerk, and such

[brandondrury]

Ya, we really owe alot to those mad scientists like reznor, rundgren, eno, frip, kraftwerk, and such

I agree. While it does take some real skill / innovation / whatever to do something magical with these types of tools and there are some terrible abuses particularly on the amateur side, the fact remains that some really great music has been made with these tools. We encounter quite a few purists (and that certainly has it's merits in particular situations), but I think it's best to keep an open mind with this sort of thing.

When recording Manson or NIN, go all out with your computer gadgetry. When recording Dylan or John Prine, pull out a couple ribbon mics and say hell with it.

Brandon

[garww]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

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When recording Manson or NIN, go all out with your computer gadgetry. When recording Dylan or John Prine, pull out a couple ribbon mics and say hell with it.

Brandon

Thanks for reminding me. I'm really in the mood for some Prine !! Saw him, too. Love the story tellers : )

[jdbunda]

Personally - I will take bad real drums every time, but I will also hedge and say that fake drums are getting better and better every year. I am a noob to this whole recording thing, just getting my studio set up, but still, when I compare what I can get out of EZDrummer to the grating, annoying noise that used to come out of old school beat boxes, well, I am very impressed.

I do think that the reasons programmed beats sound inferior are becoming better understood. The "humanization" schemes that do some quantization dithering are cool and important, but as noted here, not the whole story. I think the next step in programmed drums will involve integrating some deeper understanding of "the way drummers think" into the process, and I don't think that is necessarily that far off. Still, when you compare how long it takes to do acceptable programmed beats, even with good tools, I sometimes wonder if it would be quicker and more rewarding to just learn to play the damn drums .

On the subject of pushing and pulling the beat, I saw a great interview with Ringo Starr somewhere, in which he was asked about how he developed his unique "behind the beat" riffs and fills. He burst out laughing, saying that was entirely an artifact of his being left-handed, but he always played on right-handed kits, so many of the things he did were "backwards" and done in awkward ways that just plain took him longer to get around. He said he was astonished when these quirks were analyzed and thought to be part of his stylization. A funny story, but it also is a great illustration of what we are talking about.

[brandondrury]

Still, when you compare how long it takes to do acceptable programmed beats, even with good tools, I sometimes wonder if it would be quicker and more rewarding to just learn to play the damn drums

I 100% agree. Although there is no way I'm going to be one of "those people".

I've found that with an electronic drum kit, drummers will volunteer to come in and do session work. It's the best of all worlds and works out great for everyone.

Brandon

[garageband]

sometimes wonder if it would be quicker and more rewarding to just learn to play the damn drums

Quicker? No. More rewarding? Definitely.

[crooked09]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with programmed drums.

Would you really rather EVER listen to programmed drums? Have you ever listened to a song, and said to yourself, wow, I really like that drummer, that was a cool fill, offbeat, run, etc., only to find out that you were listening to programmed drums? I know I have not...

well, it was programmed by a human. It's still a human's idea, and a human's creativity. It's just a matter of using the mouse and computer as an instrument/outlet of that idea instead of hitting a drum kit or strumming a guitar.

I think its conceivable that someone who only programs "fake" instruments could be more of a musician than someone who plays guitar really well but only plays other people's material.

However the drawback is that many times people who program MIDI drums are not drummers themselves, have never listened carefully to drums, and/or don't care too much about drums. So these things can add up to less creative, more boring, possibly unrealistic sounding drums. But its not an inherent problem with the programmable drums.

edit: depending what is meant by bad, I voted for bad real drums being worse. at least with programmable they will be on time and the sample will sound good! in other words, they won't detract from the song probably, but they just won't add. bad real drums however definitely have potential to take away from the song.

[garageband]

well, it was programmed by a human. It's still a human's idea, and a human's creativity.

Well said, all around. I had an old project I ran across that had programmed drums. I was surprised how hip the "playing" was. I thought, "Well, I've got a drum kit here, I'll just play some real drums." What a pointless exercise that would have been. It sounded fine and the benefit would have been very slight to redo work already done for no real musical benefit.