Ambience

[MetalDave]

Brandon, Sometimes you make this all sound so easy. Just get a room and toss in a band put mics on them and record. Bing Bing... done! Now where do we put the buddy bar? Might as well put the engineer in the same room also... HMMMM I wonder why live recording always sound horrible compared to studio? Its' gotta be the shoes! I guess I have always been maybe to criticle. The average listener doesn't know what you went through to get a certain sound. If it sounds great to start with why seperate everything? I have ran sound for certain bands that when I ran the sound, all I had to do was sit back and listen! It was like a dream come true. I honestly believe I could have just put 2 mics in the room and had the best recording I ever did. This only works with great bands. This is only 1 or 2 percent of the time. usually You will need seperation. I am not sure I will be recording Frank Zappa, ELO, Jane's Addiction or Red Hot Chili Peppers any time soon.

[MetalDave]

I wish I had some of the recordings of a band I ran sound for called Black Eagle. These were all live recordings. The best recording I got was in this little tiny room 2 mics hanging in front of the speakers. NO eqs! sounded great! The room had carpet and curtains on the walls. The ceiling was dropped acoustic tile. It was a dead room! Every ambient room we ever did recording in sounded bad. everything muttled together into this muddy chunk of shit. even the flash pots sounded like a thud. No attack on anything. what you heard in the dead room was what was coming out of the speakers. pure bliss compared to the high ceiling rooms where the energy was great live but couldn't get a good recording of it to save our souls!

[brandondrury]

Brandon, Sometimes you make this all sound so easy.

There are some complicated concepts in audio engineer, what once it all makes sense the difficulty goes down considerably as long as we are firing on all cylinders. The experience is the part that makes it easy. For example, I was playing around with some guitars yesterday just for fun. I simply slapped a 421 in front of my amp. I had an excellent guitar sound. I moved the mic maybe an inch. Capturing cool guitars isn't exceptionally complicated if you already like your guitar tone and know when you hear it in your studio monitors.

I wonder why live recording always sound horrible compared to studio?

I've heard a bunch of amazing sounding live albums. I guess that's subjective.

I wish I had some of the recordings of a band I ran sound for called Black Eagle. These were all live recordings.

For live sound gigs, I will ALWAYS prefer a relatively dead room just for gain before feedback alone and that doesn't even mention the improved intelligibility of vocals and EVERYTHING. However, recording a band live in a bar and recording a band in the studio are totally different things. There is some middle ground and there are different qualities of ambience. If you suggesting that all ambiance is bad, I can't agree with you.

Few people have heard a truly great room. When I toured a Blackbird Studios (the biggest studio in Nashville) there rooms were phenomal and VERY VERY live. This is the sound of rock drums with the exception of the early Fleetwood Mac recordings and maybe some Slipknot. Drums in these rooms are what you hear on major label drum recordings .

Now, if we were to place an entire rock band with a PA in this room, it would certainly be chaos. So if we are talking out the notion of tracking bands live in the same room, we DEFINITELY want to knock the ambiance down and maybe get some isolation.

The big issue with the live recording is the PA. It's the "X" Factor. We could definitely record a full band live with minimal isolation if the PA isn't blowing sound artifically all over the place. Generally speaking, most people don't want their vocals going through a PA and into the room mics. This isn't really how we achieve the modern vocal sound and it isn't something that many people find desirable.

[MetalDave]

Ok back to what sounds best then.... Why do 90% of the people who record Bass guitar prefer DI? Hmmmm how am I going to get a room sound that way? Why do my drum recordings sound better if I put the mics inside the drums? Again no ambience. Why do we usually put the guitar mic a few inches away from the speaker cab? to get room sound? Why did Jimmy Hendricks have most of his studio deadened to the max? to get ambience? Why did Zappa develop 3 different types of sound deadening panels? to hear sound bouncing off of walls? Why did Templeman put Alex Van Halen in a totally deadened room? Ambience? I have had ambience work for me... Usually I wish I could get rid of the room sound so I can put the reverb I want on something. Reverb sucks 90% of the time when you add it to something that already has reverb. I still to this day walk around rooms and clap my hands. I hear doubler in one place go to a different spot and hear delay, go to a different spot and hear reverb. Even flange sometimes, depending on the shape and size of the room. I have all of these effects available to me at my disposal. Whay would I want effects on the raw recording? I don't. I have seen and read about engineers spending thousands of dollars on getting rid of ambience. Is this because ambience is our friend? I think not! I have done recordings the latest of a violinist in a big room. I got this hissing sound in the recording. It sounds like tape noise but how could that be with a digital recording? I put him in the corner and hung a curtain around him he did it again and walla! sounded great in comparison. I totally got rid of the room sound and the recording sounded way better. My point here is unless you have lots of cash to build the perfect room, deadening the room some will be better almost every time. If we want the guitar to have a delay do we record it that way? I don't, because once it is done, it is done. no going back and fixing it without having the guitar player come and do it again. Hopefully without the delay so I can add it the way it sounds best. And still be able to go back and change it to what someone else may think is better than what I thought. I remember listening to one of my recordings I did a few years ago and saying I can hear the room. it sounds like shit. how can I get rid of that sound? I can't unless I re record the whole thing. My favorite and cheapest way so far is to hang a full length curtain around the source. keep the room sound out not to soundproof in any way just get rid of the spacial sound that causes recordings to sound well... cheap. I don't record with the whole band in one room. Unless I am doind a live recording. I have done some live recordings that sounded better than the studio ones that the band had spent several weeks doing in a few hours. Black Eagle comes to mind again. we sent in the recording to be critiqued by Michael Bruce. he liked the live version because he said the room sound was better. In the studio they did each part in a different room causing too many different room sounds in the recording. He said it would have sounded way better if the engineer in the studio would have deadened all the rooms and plugged the bass DI and add reverb where needed. Here is an example of isolation no one ever thinks about pictured below.

[brandondrury]

Why do 90% of the people who record Bass guitar prefer DI? Hmmmm how am I going to get a room sound that way?

That's probably accurate. That is a big reason why I prefer going DI with bass. I can't think of too many situations where ambiance would benefit bass guitar. Bass certainly has a way of exciting the undesireable qualities of a room too.

Why do we usually put the guitar mic a few inches away from the speaker cab? to get room sound?

I get your point, but I know I've used room mics dozens of times on electric guitar. I think most people don't like pulling their cardiod dynamic mics too far off the cabinet because the proximity effect pulls the low end down in a hurry. You can hear this here:
Electric Guitar Microphone Shootout

Why did Jimmy Hendricks have most of his studio deadened to the max?

Not sure about Hendrix. I've never heard anything about that one.

Why did Templeman put Alex Van Halen in a totally deadened room?

Because that was the 70s and the dead drum sound in at the time. Why did Andy Johns clearly NOT put Alex Van Halen in a dead room (For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge)? Because they were going for the old John Bohnam sound (Zeppelin was known as being rebels when they went for the huge ambient drums back when everyone else was going for the Fleetwood Mac drum sound.)

Reverb sucks 90% of the time when you add it to something that already has reverb.

Oh, I'm not sure if I'd agree on that number. It's hard to say. The right kind of ambiance is awesome in the right situation at the right time. Is it always appropriate? Clearly not. I think the important word here is "always". You seem to be implying that natural ambiance is never a good thing. If that's the case, I won't have a hard time giving you examples where natural room ambiance has been a huge part of a very desirable sound.

What I'm curious about is why would a person who knows what they are doing record with bad sounding ambiance? I don't understand that. If there are undesirable reflections, it's the engineers job to knock them down. That's a given. I do that each and every time I need to.

Whay would I want effects on the raw recording? I don't.

That's one way of working. However, there are certainly times where you can not add what you want later. This goes from everything from power tube distortion on an electric guitar to the way an drum kit gels together in a room. If you've got the exact sound you are looking for, why bother waiting until mix time? I try not to delay decisions if I'm positive I like what I have.

I have seen and read about engineers spending thousands of dollars on getting rid of ambience. Is this because ambience is our friend? I think not!

There is no doubt that this has happened over the years. However, if you could add up all those days spent on $5,000 / day rooms at big boy studios to get drums that are only possible in these magical spaces you are also gonna end up with a big number.

Again, to see that "ambience is not our friend" would be impossible for me to say. Sometimes ambiance is perfect!

My point here is unless you have lots of cash to build the perfect room, deadening the room some will be better almost every time.

Okay, with that I can't debate. Then again, I believe my drum recordings have improved sense I livened my room up, for whatever that is worth. I'm just lucky my design / room sounded good.

If we want the guitar to have a delay do we record it that way? I don't,

There are a lot of fun topics in this thread! My answer to that is it depends. A delay in front of a distorted amp is dramatically different than a delay after a distorted amp. If the delay is part of the signature thing the band does, I let them do it. If it's a "creative" thing I let the guitar player do it. If they are looking for ambiance (like something I would add to an 80s guitar lead) then I do it. That's worked out well for me.

I don't, because once it is done, it is done. no going back and fixing it without having the guitar player come and do it again.

That's a double edged sword. It swings both ways. When you know you really committing to something, you make sure it is good. My confidence to make these types of decisions has grown extensively over the years.

[richiebee]

Originally Posted by MetalDave

I have done recordings the latest of a violinist in a big room. I got this hissing sound in the recording. It sounds like tape noise but how could that be with a digital recording? I put him in the corner and hung a curtain around him he did it again and walla! sounded great in comparison. I totally got rid of the room sound and the recording sounded way better.

I always use the room sound when miking horns, strings or winds. Close miking + artificial reverb sounds crap in comparison. Of course it helps to have a nice room to do it all in.

This is where I do most of mine...



It's very live. We have curtains to dampen the sound as we need it, but for strings and piano, the curtains tend to stay open.

My point here is unless you have lots of cash to build the perfect room, deadening the room some will be better almost every time.

I agree with this.

Here is an example of isolation no one ever thinks about pictured below.

No one? I have Primacoustic pads under my monitors.

There is a w a r m t h that you get from room ambiance that you don't get from close miking + artificial reverb. I guess you get more of the harmonics.

[brandondrury]

On the right sources, a great room adds a sense of excitement. Everyone's definition of "right source" and "great room" are going to vary quite a bit.

The issue of taste comes up too. There are many classic rooms that were built without any scientic design to them. They were just sort of slapped together with whatever materials sounded good. There was a guy in Tape Op who did a Paul McCartney record in the past 5 years or so and he was talking about he has great rooms and there is no treatment of any kind. Apparently the architecture alone was enough to give the room character that he wanted.

I think there are many home recording situations where there are interesting acoustical spaces that could benefit the music and I think sometimes that gets lost by young engineers who didn't realize it and went nuts deadening everything. On the other side of the coin, some bands don't realize it when they have a room that sounds terrible.

To me there are too many benefits of a good sounding room to simply suggest that everyone deaden their acoustical space, but then there is a responsibility on the engineer to know when what they have sounds good or not at any given time.

Brandon