2 issues 1 song. When we mix are we really doing anything?My Quest for Big Clean Lows

[paul999]

I wasn't going to jam these things into one thread but this is exactly how my brain went today so I figured I would present these topics in the way I experienced them. I've been having this goofy thought. "I wonder how much we are actually accomplishing when we mix?" This question mostly stems from me trying to back off from over processing which I believe I tend towards. I employed this simple experimentation tactic. I simply took my raw tracks and put together a mix with volume, pan and a little 2 buss compression and made a quick mix. Next I did my mix as usual and compared the 2. Whew Luckily the mix is better then the no mix version:-) More then that though I wanted to check that every element was better in the final then in the rough. The most important thing for me was did I keep the essence of what we heard in the initial tracks in the final mix. A rudimentary yet useful experiment especially when trying to not over process. It gets easier to hear crushed snares and congested low end when comparing the two.

Next my quest for Big clean lows. I'm not trying to change music history with my low end but I still often feel like the low end on guitar, bass and kick fight each other a ton on my mixes. I did something dramatically out of the norm on this for me. I don't think it sounds dramatic other then the low end is clearer then usual for me. Let me know what you think. I'll tell what I did after some folks weigh in. On the other hand I finished the mix 10 minutes ago and I could be TOTALLY out to lunch as is the case when I experiment often:-}

BTW. They wanted to keep the false intro

[kakeux]

Hi,

There are for sure improvement with the mix version. The most important: vocals, guitar and punch in the drums.

I have a strange feeling with the drums, it feels like there are some delayed element that make the fills sounds a bit strange (specially during the intro). This is happening in both version. Maybe that's just my ears that are fooling me. Maybe it's just the way it plays...

The snare snap in the second version is a bit too much for my taste. It jumps out of the mix a bit too much. Maybe the upper frequency added is not the right one. It sounds like the snare is constrained, hard to describe.

The guitars and bass seems to work on the mixed version. However the bass is quite hard to hear on my current system.

For the lows, I can't hear anything that would make me say wahou or grrrrr....It sounds like normal lows to me.

By the way I like the song and the mix is pretty good. I don't know if my post is what you expected

Cheers!

[redworks]

You are right the mix definitely is better. I am with Kakeux regarding the snare. In fact so much so that it is distracting me from the low end. Now that i am focusing on the low end i am still having a hard time hearing the bass on the headphones. I even at moments started to question is there even a bass playing in this song?

[paul999]

Hey Guys

Thanks for checkin' out the thread.

Kakeux-The delay element you are hearing on the intro is the kick not lining up with the beat well enough. Looks like it is time to start nudgeing it around to make it line up better.

Right before I printed I thought " I wonder if I have too much snap on the snare LOL. I am used to fighting to get a snare through a more congested mix and there has been no such thing as too much snap to achieve this. I do agree I can back off on the transient a bit. Whew what a relief.

The bass guitar in this song for me is an anchor as opposed to being articulate. Sort of the bottom end for the guitars. At the point that the bass is not just "shadowing the guitars" at about 1:53 I can clearly hear it in earbuds without fighting. What are you listening on.

Redworks-Kind of a dumb question but did it sound like an "..and justice for all" type situation to you or enough low end but just not an articulated bass.

[kakeux]

I can hear the bass on my headphones, but there's no much definition to it so it looks like it's what you wanted. So finally the bass line is not easy to follow but I can definitely hear the bass rhumble that fills the lows.

[paul999]

I can hear the bass on my headphones, but there's no much definition to it so it looks like it's what you wanted. So finally the bass line is not easy to follow but I can definitely hear the bass rhumble that fills the lows.

That makes sense and is how I hear it.

[JoshERTW]

Redworks-Kind of a dumb question but did it sound like an "..and justice for all" type situation to you or enough low end but just not an articulated bass.

To me it sounds like there's enough low end, but not enough definition - I find myself missing some of the mid/hi-mid stuff like pick attack and slap on the kick drum - The kick is there and has nice thickness but it sounds like he was using one of those felt beaters that you'd hear on marching band bass drums (I had one of those one an old kick pedal of mine and it had no slap to it).

Same with bass, it definitely pokes through a bit from time to time, but you could probably emphasize some of it's midrange character a little more without detrimental effects to the guitars (which sound great). Tom's have great tone to them and cut through admirably - they sound really wide to me though (like "outside" of the guitars?). Also, I agree with the other guys on the snare.

That said it's a pretty solid mix, going into "squint" mode here really, I'd be pretty happy with this mix if I was a client. The big improvement I noticed between the raw tracks and the mix is in clarity and cleanup of low and low mid stuff. To me that just shows that the tracking was really good.

Edit: I love this style of music, played in punk influenced bands my whole life - my comments regarding mid-range type definition on the bass/kick are more or less personal preference, but I do feel they would serve the song well.

[garageband]

"Joy to the world, the Lord has come!! Let earth... receive... her Kiiiing!!!! RAAAAH!!!"

[redworks]

it is definitely a case of a lack of definition on that bass. i am really struggling with a similar problem on my current mixes so i was hoping that you had found a way. That is probably why i came across sounding so disappointed.

[garww]

You know I tend to go simple. I often go to the output EQ to see if I can get most of it in line. Philosopically, I'm just avoiding the; " here at the 36c implants you were interesting in for enlargement surgery. Over here are the 44d (for comparison)". I have some single performer tunes that I think are over mixed, but I can't deny it works very well. As far as any range being too busy. I still think stuff can be labeled as non-essential.

[brandondrury]

I wonder how much we are actually accomplishing when we mix?"

Yeah, I wonder this sometimes, too. I noticed not long ago when I started to REALLY break the rules and toss 2bus stuff on the mix towards the end of a mix that after everything I worked hard for was restored usually just fixing a few conflicts and getting the damn mix loud enough was 90% there. Maybe more.

This was another reason I embraced my speed mixing where I'd do a mix in 30 minutes and stop and render no matter what. It was a zillion times more efficient as I never spend 2 hours EQing a vocal that I a month later I got right in 2 minutes.

There are some sounds that are worth fighting for, but most of the time the extra investment doesn't pay proportional dividends.

----

In regard to the mix, I'm not sure I'm the right guy to be saying this. I've been doing a TON of electronic music/pop studying lately and because of it I'm adding significant amounts of 46Hz to all my kicks. I miss it in this one...but this may be a phase I'll regret in 6 months (as usual). The other thing that's screwing me up about synth production is how easy to it is to "tune" an "out of tune" instrument. Let me clarify. I'm not exactly talking about tuning. On the snare, I'm hearing some 300-400Hz that I don't love, but it's the kind of drum that if I pitched it down it would "align" and that bit of boxinessness would become "good meat" suddenly. I think I may be less tolerant of the "raw" nature of the mix than I would have been a year ago and I'm not sure that's a good thing, necessarily.

I love the guitar sound. The midrange complexity is really fun and didn't exist on your quicky mix.

So what did you do to the low end?

Brandon

[paul999]

So what did you do to the low end?

Brandon

[/QUOTE]

The low end - Time after time I've had drummer after drummer ask for a kick drum without a crazy loud beater attack. This drummer was one of those. My instinct says "good luck with that". I decided that if I could clear up some low end mud I'd be able to achieve this. I've also noticed that most commercial recordings have quite a bit more sub bass then I usually allow. I've also noticed that in an attempt to clear some lows my guitars have tended towards anemic.

Enter weapon number one- sub bass. I'm not talking about some waves subbass psycho acoustic B.S. I used a harmonizer an octave lower with a HPF and LPF. I made a separate track of this for bass, and each rhythm guitar. I chose to LPF down to 60hz and HPF at 40hz the frequency on bass. This frequency and frequency range was chosen based on listening with only my sub. I wanted to feel the bass the whole time and never have it disappear from the sub area or have it jump out loud. I did the same thing with the guitars. Their sub range was 110-140ish(I know not sub range) I cut a lot of lows off the guitar until they were anemic and then added sub lows until they rocked again. I cut a ton of 70-110hz on bass and then added in sub lows until I could feel my guts rumble a little through the mains. The kick pounds at 75hz. Perfect for old school rock and roll IMO.

Weapon number two - side chain compression. I used a little side chain compression on the bass and guitars keyed to the kick and the snare. I added more side chain compression to the sub channels of the guitars and bass so that when the kick hit they really got out of the way.

I will be exploring this technique for a while tweaking it I'm sure.