Was It Worth $2500.00 for O.H drum mic's

[paul999]

Okay I am really just trying to get attention into the country folder. The O.H.'s are vintage km84's and did cost $2500 canadian. I tried a bunch of new things on this and would love some feed back. This is more folkish but this seemed to be the right folder.

Please bash away!!!!!!!!

There is a new version on page 2.

[Bigduggieface]

You're right, this is closer to folk than country. I grew up in Edmonton and lived there up until about 4 years ago and I've heard a lot of this kind of music from the Canadian prairies.

First off, a very pro sounding product from you as usual. Vocals and strummed acoustics sound especially good. All of the background vox sit perfectly in the mix.

The guitar solo is very tasty and well-performed. It's compressed and up front, but it seems to work well.

Good idea to run the breakdown through a filter. This gives the song some well-needed dynamics. The chorus really grabs you when it comes back in after the breakdown.

Drums and bass sound rather distant compared to the other instruments for some reason. The clarity isn't quite there. Perhaps too much artificial reverb? The rimshots are swimming in a soup of 'verb. Especially when compared to the bone-dry lead vocal. I understand that depth in the mix is important, but I'd like to hear the drums a bit more clearly and not so far away.

It's hard for me to comment about your overhead mics in a situation like this. You were there and you would have a better idea of whether they flatter the drums or whether another pair would have worked better. The cymbals have a nice shimmer to them. I'd suspect that this is an expensive drum kit miked with your expensive overhead mics.

Good job overall! Keep 'em coming...

[paul999]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Bigduggieface

You're right, this is closer to folk than country. I grew up in Edmonton and lived there up until about 4 years ago and I've heard a lot of this kind of music from the Canadian prairies.

Cool. Do I know you!

First off, a very pro sounding product from you as usual. Vocals and strummed acoustics sound especially good. All of the background vox sit perfectly in the mix.

I was concerned with the vox, especially the female backing vox sitting the mix. Thanks.

The guitar solo is very tasty and well-performed. It's compressed and up front, but it seems to work well.

Neumann KM84 (same as drum over heads) on a 1964 gibson acoustic, distressor comp.

Good idea to run the breakdown through a filter. This gives the song some well-needed dynamics. The chorus really grabs you when it comes back in after the breakdown.

Thank-you. It almost broke my heart to do this but it was necessary.

Drums and bass sound rather distant compared to the other instruments for some reason. The clarity isn't quite there. Perhaps too much artificial reverb? The rimshots are swimming in a soup of 'verb. Especially when compared to the bone-dry lead vocal. I understand that depth in the mix is important, but I'd like to hear the drums a bit more clearly and not so far away.

It's hard for me to comment about your overhead mics in a situation like this. You were there and you would have a better idea of whether they flatter the drums or whether another pair would have worked better. The cymbals have a nice shimmer to them. I'd suspect that this is an expensive drum kit miked with your expensive overhead mics.

Good job overall! Keep 'em coming..

Wow this was absolutely the area I needed feedback most.

The bass is a standing bass. I felt I needed to smooth out the bass a bit to anchor the song and I think it is a bit too much in the verses because of the multi band compression when mastering.

The drums are a custom ayotte set with aax studio crash cymbals hhx hats and Neil Pert (Sp?) ride. How many hours can a guy spend on a tone block? It has been a few. There is no digital reverb or delay anywhere in this recording. I used a pair of 414's as a spaced pair 15-20ft back to provide all of the "reverb" for the over all kit. I keyed a tlm103 in a back room to the snare and a wunder c7 is keyed to the toms 8ft back from the drums. The tone block is km84 O.H's and the 414's far back on about half of them and for too quiet hits I added a bit of the direct mic (less then half the time). The 414's are just loud enough to fill out the over heads but are actually quite quiet. When I hit the tone block it just lit up the 414's. I found if I had it too direct when the snare came in it couldn't compete with the snap.

I had done a mix with clearer drums and I felt it had made the slightly more rock style drums be too rocky. Maybe this was a mistake I think I will try ducking the 414's with the tone block hits in the least and I have probably gone just a bit too far in reducing drum attack and clarity.

You are not the first person the has mentioned my bone "dry lead vocals"

When I recorded these lead vox I recorded the room as well with a pair of 414's at different distances and used them as the reverb and there is quite a bit. I also used tape delay 2 times. 1 quick delay and one long as well as a layering his voice. This is still striking more than just you as being bone dry. I want the effect of just not noticing the fx on the voice not overly dry or wet. I don't think that is what I am achieving.

Thank you so much for the time you put into giving me feed back on this bigduggieface.:be erbangX:

If you come back to edmonton let me buy you a beer. Nah make it two.

[Bigduggieface]

Edmonton is the center of the music cosmos, bebeh! It's the chemicals they put in Alberta water.

Now that you clarify a few things about the recording itself, it all starts to make more sense. Such as the tone block. Of course that's not a side stick snare!

Also, the standup bass must be the hardest instrument on the planet to record in a manner that it is heard clearly. I've joked with bassists about this. Standup players can wiggle their fingers around and make all kinds of orgasmic facial expressions, and the audience will think they are brilliant. This is because most of what the bassist plays is inaudible.

Interesting how you describe capturing the room sound in different instances. I find that there's a real art in getting the reverb just right. Often the perfect amount is just on the threshold of actually distinguishing "bone dry" from "lightly seasoned". It can be a very subliminal thing.

Other times, reverb is great for 'lengthening' or to give an instrument 'depth'. Good to see that you're using the room to its full advantage.

I remember the moment I heard my first convolution reverb. I nearly pissed myself with glee!

[rockerdude]

This whole mix had a midrange harshness to it. Not alot of low end and the drums sound distant and thin.I like the song.The vocals sound like they are sitting in mix well just a little sibbilant and harsh.The acoustic solo was sweeeeet.I think the drums needed to be more up front and more attention paid to treating the room if needed and getting better drum sounds before you hit record.It sounds like there was a ton of bad reverb on this track(Drums).Don't get me wrong this is a nice song and the recording is very good I just hear lots of room for improvement.Just my .02 what the hell do I know.....my studio is at Sterling Sound Studios I will post some songs soon.Stay tuned........

[paul999]

[QUOTE=rockerdude;117922]

This whole mix had a midrange harshness to it. Not alot of low end and the drums sound distant and thin.

I have been accused of midrange harshness before to. I'm not sure where you got the not enough low end detail. I found the bass very over powering from the intro until the chorus. Maybe I'm not getting something. What are you listening on?

I think the drums needed to be more up front and more attention paid to treating the room if needed and getting better drum sounds before you hit record.....It sounds like there was a ton of bad reverb on this track(Drums

Wow I have other producers come to my studio just to capture the room especially with drums. I do think I may have been a bit over zealous with using the mic's in my 3500sqft room.

Thank-you very much for your feedback. I found it very useful.

[paul999]

Originally Posted by Bigduggieface

Interesting how you describe capturing the room sound in different instances. I find that there's a real art in getting the reverb just right. Often the perfect amount is just on the threshold of actually distinguishing "bone dry" from "lightly seasoned". It can be a very subliminal thing.

Other times, reverb is great for 'lengthening' or to give an instrument 'depth'. Good to see that you're using the room to its full advantage.

I remember the moment I heard my first convolution reverb. I nearly pissed myself with glee!

A good friend a fellow producer I know loves the convolution reverb to. I haven't heard it yet.

I have been experimenting with micing this monstrous room and so far on drums I have had the best luck with a decca tree 20 ft back to get the ambient feel. Possibly I am going to far back. Actually I think I will make a separate post on this.

cheers

[frshtrx]

I had a similar mid-range sound I was trying to adjust to something else/"better"; and found changing my process to a strict bottom up approach helped a bit, starting with the kick. I'm just learning.
as far as the drums sounds, they do sound a touch distant, but they sound really nice to me. it all definitely sounds "authentic and lively", for lack of better words...

funny - there really aren't a lot of genre options on the forum, but that may be good to keep us all exposed to more influences across the board. It was nice to hear this music, thank you.

[paul999]

Originally Posted by frshtrx

I had a similar mid-range sound I was trying to adjust to something else/"better"

I am really struggling with this mix. I have done some revisions based on all of the feedback. I tightened up the bass end to give it some focus. I pulled the room mic's back a bit and ducked them out around the tone block. I tried to attend to the mid range harshness and put the drums a bit more up front. I was able to get some perspective from the other thread I posted about micing a big room as well. I hope this is an "improvement" I just finished it and haven't given myself time to see if I've been on a tangent.

I put under the original post.

Thanks for all the help!

[fHumble fHingaz]

I definitely liked the first mix better - the new one has no bottom end at all - in fact it sounds a little bit "AM radio" by comparison. The mix critiques here have been spot on in their appraisals, & it seems to be that the problem lies with the ambient mics. I would suggest stripping the mix back to the close mics, getting them sounding nice & cosy & full, then grabbing the ambient mic tracks & filtering them really aggressively to get rid of the overbearing upper midrange. You probably already high-pass filter them, but even if they sound terrible solo'd after doing this, it would be my guess that when you mix them back in with the close mics they will create a nice ambience. If not, you can put it down to the fact that I actually don't really have experience mixing ambient mics - the most I've done is the overheads on a drum kit... So I may be speaking out of my hat! I just know, usually after I've sculpted the overheads on a kit with eq, they sound nothing like a "good" drum mix on their own... So that's what I'm basing this assumption on. BTW, I really like the song, but personally, I would prefer to hear the lead vocal featured on its own at various points in the song to add diversity & drama.