please DESTROY this mix

[glenn]

Woow Brian nice song you got there,

When i listened to your first mix it was a bit loud, the song in itself is
marvellous, like it very much, i also downloaded your last mix where the
volume is much better. So keep it up and let the songs keep coming bro.

It's a longe time since iv'e seen you once again, I have just buyed myself
a new guitar (Esp Ltd Viper 100fm) a very cheap one but very good in
metal sound..

Greetings from the land of the hot backed fries
see you
glenn

[brianinogang]

Originally Posted by ashs35

If I were you dude, I'd put the cool chord change at the end, right into the middle of the song, and have it lead into something different and then bring it back to the chorus again cos thats what probly caught my attention the most (that chord change) but then the song ended also, i'd cut out the 3rd verse part, 2 verses is way enough otherwise it kinda drags on abit, also before the second chorus id try cutting out the pre-chorus after the 2nd verse aswel, that way it might have more impact when it cuts back into the chorus.. just a thought, I do like the opening heavy riff though, very cool, very asilaydyingish nice one!

Hey bro those are very kinds words. Im glad you appreciated the song parts. Well as far as song arrangement, Im afraid its a little too late for that coz this song is not using any virtual instruments. i can't edit the arrangement anymore. If only it was on the arrangement stage then I'd definitely try your thoughts. Cool thoughts though. Thanks for the input man. Do you have any ideas on the mix itself? does is still sound raw or would it be tolerable for radio play aready? some pointers on that matter would help a lot. thanks.

[brianinogang]

Originally Posted by glenn

Woow Brian nice song you got there,

When i listened to your first mix it was a bit loud, the song in itself is
marvellous, like it very much, i also downloaded your last mix where the
volume is much better. So keep it up and let the songs keep coming bro.

It's a longe time since iv'e seen you once again, I have just buyed myself
a new guitar (Esp Ltd Viper 100fm) a very cheap one but very good in
metal sound..

Greetings from the land of the hot backed fries
see you
glenn

Haha!! hello my good buddy!! hor u doin? Yeah the first song was very clippy. thanks to chas_w I ended up curing that. I'd definitely keep writing same as you do. Damn your songs are soo sooo heavy I still listen to em up to this day. Hey keep your bad ass x3live settings coz im gonna be askin for them again someday when i upgrade my pc. haha. thanks for the input man. Do you think that the last mix would cut it out for radio play or does it still need some work?? thanks man.

[chas_w]

That mix was much better and the almost constant clip is gone. Sounds good.

[Danny Danzi]

Hey Bri, you're guiding light here to lend a hand!

I love the tune first and foremost, so that's a good thing. Ok, the mix itself needs some work, but let's take a look at a few things in the mastering chain first. Let me tell you how I know you hit it too hard with a limiter in the mastering procedure...

Listen to how you can hear the crack of your snare drum on the parts where the rhythms guitars are not hitting as hard...like before a chorus comes in. Hear it? Once your chorus kicks in with all the other instruments and stuff, your snare just falls away and more or less sounds like a little "tick" type sound and has completely lost its crack. This is because the limiter is trying to level everything and your snare is the first major thing that suffers from this. Hitting the limiter too hard makes the mix sound so..like this _____________________________

The little fluctuations in a mix where it would sound like this ___---___-_-----___--___ keep it interesting, maintain dymanics and it won't fatigue the listener. When you got a cool tune like you have here bro, the last thing you want to do is make it suffer due to super loud volume for the sake of "wow, hear how loud this is?!" For what it's worth...if you get a good mix that sounds incredible and were to master it and put it on a cd at -5dB or lower....you would literally have more clarity and GOOD volume just by cranking up your stereo over the super loud, limiter stuff that will distort and sound like ass when you crank it up...honest man. I love loud...but I love GOOD quality loud, not loud for the sake of saying "damn this is really loud" follow me? Let's move on..

A bit too much sssssssssizzle in the cyms as well. You can either get rid of it (preferably) in the mix, or just phase it out when you master sweeping in on it at about 8k-12k most times.

Did you put some sort of verb on the drums or some spacializer? I think it's taking away from the drum presence as well. Something sounds artificially planted in there...especially on the snare. It almost seems to crack so wide that it sends itself to the right a bit more. Did you run some sort of HAAS effect or something there...or clone a track and offset it a few ticks? Something is weird there.

Vox still need to come up and lead guitar can come up also. As for your bass guitar, I feel it more than I can hear it so that tells me you accentuated low end as your volume instead of the actual volume on the bass. We all make this mistake all too often and most times the reason for this is the monitors we use, lack of a tuned room to make the right decisions...or we mixed in headphones.

Look into the low end on the bass...sounds like 60hz roughly to me. Take some of that out of there and when you lose a little volume from doing this, raise the fader level. If any of the bass lines leap out at you, compress it a bit more. It's ok to squash a bass in a tune like this as long as it doesn't completely kill the dynamics and bring on artifacts.

Dug your lead playing...we play a lot a like man, nice job!! Bring that solo up a bit more...when you do, you may want to bring down some of the effects in it as they will shine a bit more when the volume is up and it may be over-kill. A note on guitar effects if you're a lead player....

Try to be careful of long tails on reverbs...no long decays unless it's for effect purposes...on delays, watch for regenerations...I use no more than 4 unless it's for special effect purposes. Now, as far as how much effect to use....some people say "if you can hear it, you're using too much". I do NOT agree with that. If you don't want to hear an effect, you don't use it. If you want to hear it and you like the sound of it, use it just make sure you play clean.

A clean player can get away with using more effects unless of course it's over-kill. But to me, there are certain times when you use an effect to simply enhance something subtley...other times, you whack it in the friggin mouth and let it be heard. Verbs for example...used subtley and in moderation without using big halls and large decay times, can be awesome especially when you use the right amount of pre-delay in the verb. Other times, you might want some major ambience...but play clean and watch long tails or you get arunonsentencelikethisandthisiswhatitsoundslikeiny ourmusicsodon'teverdothisanduselongtailsok? LMAO!!

As for delays, I like them and like to hear them. As long as they are in time with the music and the player is not using them to hide his lack of playing or mistakes, they can be a beautiful thing. For delay's, I like the longer ones myself. The short, slap-back type stuff is way overdone for me. A nice long delay timed to the music with a tasty player is where it's at...especially in ballad type stuff.

So don't be afraid to experiment and have some fun. Remember, don't EVER read too much into what others say even if they are credible sources. There comes a time when you have to make the calls and the people listening also have to listen to what was presented, not what they think should go on in their own image. If you like something and it makes you feel good, you're right where you want to be bro. Good luck with everything...and I hope some of this helps.

[ashs35]

Originally Posted by brianinogang

Hey bro those are very kinds words. Im glad you appreciated the song parts. Well as far as song arrangement, Im afraid its a little too late for that coz this song is not using any virtual instruments. i can't edit the arrangement anymore. If only it was on the arrangement stage then I'd definitely try your thoughts. Cool thoughts though. Thanks for the input man. Do you have any ideas on the mix itself? does is still sound raw or would it be tolerable for radio play aready? some pointers on that matter would help a lot. thanks.

not sure man, I woudn't consider myself an expert on mixing but what i would do if i were you, is record it all over again with a metronome cos there are a fair few drum parts that are way out of time and sloppy and it kinda throws the riffs & everything outa wack, so in terms of it being played on the radio, first I would record it all again so its all perfectly in time, then focus on the levels of the different instruments in contrast to one another, then, mix it all down to one file so you've just got an instrumental version, then you can experiment with recording the vocals cos they do need alot of work in both performance and recording quality imo

ashs35 music licensing store - YouLicense.com

[glenn]

Originally Posted by brianinogang

Haha!! hello my good buddy!! hor u doin? Yeah the first song was very clippy. thanks to chas_w I ended up curing that. I'd definitely keep writing same as you do. Damn your songs are soo sooo heavy I still listen to em up to this day. Hey keep your bad ass x3live settings coz im gonna be askin for them again someday when i upgrade my pc. haha. thanks for the input man. Do you think that the last mix would cut it out for radio play or does it still need some work?? thanks man.

Hi Brian,

I have read some from the listener above me (Danny Danzy) I think he is
very experienced in the recording area, what he says seems logical however
i'm not that experienced yet.

I listen to the mix as a whole and can say that it only need some more
dynamics, that's all.. the guitars could be maybe a bit more cleaner but
i like them how they sound, don't take too much quality over your mix though
to much quality can begin to sound sterile.. do it subtle

glenn

[fHumble fHingaz]

when you say "hairy", what does that mean? explaining further would help a ton. and the "ragged edge", are you particular of its phase state or a particular frequency that comes up when played?

Sorry, these are very non-specific, subjective terms & I know I'll probably just end up explaining them with more subjective, non-specific terms, but here goes... When I say the guitar tone is "hairy" & has a "ragged edge", the thing I'm hearing is what usually happens if you cascade the output of a pedal with too much gain & top end into an amp that already has a lot of gain & top end, so rather than getting a nice muscular solid, controlled amp tone, it becomes slightly out of control & a little bit "flabby" (as opposed to muscular).... damn, this is really hard... anyway, that's the best I can do.

When you said automation, what did that mean?

Most DAW's have the facility to "draw in" automatic adjustments to the fader levels of the tracks. A really good way of getting the maximum out of a vocal is to go through the vocal track before you add compression & carefully "draw in" changes in the fader levels, so that the compressor(s) don't have to work as hard to even out the levels later on. Attached is an example of what I'm talking about.

On your latest mix, I may be mistaken, but is the snare panned to one side? If that was your intention, no problem, it's just that, being such a prominent & constant feature of a mix, usually it's best to pan the snare & kick to the centre so the mix remains balanced.

[brianinogang]

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Hey Bri, you're guiding light here to lend a hand!

yeah finally!!!!!

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

I love the tune first and foremost, so that's a good thing. Ok, the mix itself needs some work, but let's take a look at a few things in the mastering chain first. Let me tell you how I know you hit it too hard with a limiter in the mastering procedure...

Listen to how you can hear the crack of your snare drum on the parts where the rhythms guitars are not hitting as hard...like before a chorus comes in. Hear it? Once your chorus kicks in with all the other instruments and stuff, your snare just falls away and more or less sounds like a little "tick" type sound and has completely lost its crack. This is because the limiter is trying to level everything and your snare is the first major thing that suffers from this. Hitting the limiter too hard makes the mix sound so..like this _____________________________

The little fluctuations in a mix where it would sound like this ___---___-_-----___--___ keep it interesting, maintain dymanics and it won't fatigue the listener. When you got a cool tune like you have here bro, the last thing you want to do is make it suffer due to super loud volume for the sake of "wow, hear how loud this is?!" For what it's worth...if you get a good mix that sounds incredible and were to master it and put it on a cd at -5dB or lower....you would literally have more clarity and GOOD volume just by cranking up your stereo over the super loud, limiter stuff that will distort and sound like ass when you crank it up...honest man. I love loud...but I love GOOD quality loud, not loud for the sake of saying "damn this is really loud" follow me? Let's move on..

You nailed it! Yeah i was aiming for that "ooh so loud mix" but ended up destroying it i guess. I actually double compressed the track. the first is on the master bus before sending to a mixdown. It sounded good at the time coz i left a 5db headroom and as I recall and the compression was a subtle one, it was still dynamic. but then after eqing during mastering, i decided to compress it a bit further and obviously, pushed it over the limits. haha. It sounded well balanced on my monitors though, but then i again, i didnt double check it with my headphones and my pc "tin can" speakers to check if i over did something on the volume and eq knobs.. Thats what i usually do after mixing so that the errors would just be from the "washed outness" of my ears from the mix, but I was so pumped I skipped those parts. I'm sowing the fruits of impatientness.

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

A bit too much sssssssssizzle in the cyms as well. You can either get rid of it (preferably) in the mix, or just phase it out when you master sweeping in on it at about 8k-12k most times.

Did you put some sort of verb on the drums or some spacializer? I think it's taking away from the drum presence as well. Something sounds artificially planted in there...especially on the snare. It almost seems to crack so wide that it sends itself to the right a bit more. Did you run some sort of HAAS effect or something there...or clone a track and offset it a few ticks? Something is weird there.

Yah actually I did. You're one of a kind bro. you noticed that?? even my band mates didnt.haha. Here's what happened, when I first started recording in 2004, this was the very first song that I mixed. Being a young dude at the time, I was fast forwarding myself to become better. I ended up eqing everything without a backup of the original files.... but, to be fair with myself, that was also the time that I was learning how to use a computer aside from gaming and word applications. Hahaha. No idea of needing backups or anything else when it comes to audio exept how to use the very basic functions of my DAW. Ok to make the long story short, I eq'd the cymbals massively because when played on solo, I thought it sucked. I wanted it to sound like what was coming out from my favorite records and never realized that I would need that small suckiness of a sound as a component to make the drum mix better in the end. hahah. mistakes of life huh?? From what i remember I eq'd everything scooped in the middle and saved it. I was using cool edit back then and did not know how to use a bus and real time usage of effects in that DAW. by the way, can you fill me in on "master sweeping"?

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Vox still need to come up and lead guitar can come up also. As for your bass guitar, I feel it more than I can hear it so that tells me you accentuated low end as your volume instead of the actual volume on the bass. We all make this mistake all too often and most times the reason for this is the monitors we use, lack of a tuned room to make the right decisions...or we mixed in headphones.

I do have an untuned room. Just my good old sleeping quarter and thats it. no bass traps and everything but im planning to treat that. I'm still reading this book about acoustics and Im learning a lot from it. Application would definitely be there in one year. Yes when I played it on my "tin can" speakers, I also realized that the bass was destroying it. vocals were down at some points especially on the chorus parts and also the guitar solo. Dude are you using magic or somethin like it?? bro, you have SUPERB ears noticing everything that i have noticed in my end and the ones i havent as well!!!!

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Look into the low end on the bass...sounds like 60hz roughly to me. Take some of that out of there and when you lose a little volume from doing this, raise the fader level. If any of the bass lines leap out at you, compress it a bit more. It's ok to squash a bass in a tune like this as long as it doesn't completely kill the dynamics and bring on artifacts.

yup!! correct again danny. gee... youre freakin me out. haha. I wanted to have that hidden subsonic wave to it so I added about 3-4db to the 60hz below region. It doesnt sound right does it?..

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Dug your lead playing...we play a lot a like man, nice job!! Bring that solo up a bit more...when you do, you may want to bring down some of the effects in it as they will shine a bit more when the volume is up and it may be over-kill. A note on guitar effects if you're a lead player....

Thanks for appreciating that man!!! dude I wouldnt even dare compare myself to you when it comes to playing. I listened to your records and the only thing that didnt happen was your guitar exploding while you were playing. late 80's style of guitar and metal are my roots so the guys who were there are my heroes, and that includes you! lets drink to that!!!! yeah the effects technique when bringing up the volume is noted. will def try that on the next mix.

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

Try to be careful of long tails on reverbs...no long decays unless it's for effect purposes...on delays, watch for regenerations...I use no more than 4 unless it's for special effect purposes. Now, as far as how much effect to use....some people say "if you can hear it, you're using too much". I do NOT agree with that. If you don't want to hear an effect, you don't use it. If you want to hear it and you like the sound of it, use it just make sure you play clean.

A clean player can get away with using more effects unless of course it's over-kill. But to me, there are certain times when you use an effect to simply enhance something subtley...other times, you whack it in the friggin mouth and let it be heard. Verbs for example...used subtley and in moderation without using big halls and large decay times, can be awesome especially when you use the right amount of pre-delay in the verb. Other times, you might want some major ambience...but play clean and watch long tails or you get arunonsentencelikethisandthisiswhatitsoundslikeiny ourmusicsodon'teverdothisanduselongtailsok? LMAO!!

haha my eyes crossed on that last sentence. I got all of those tips danny!! they're noted!

Originally Posted by Danny Danzi

So don't be afraid to experiment and have some fun. Remember, don't EVER read too much into what others say even if they are credible sources. There comes a time when you have to make the calls and the people listening also have to listen to what was presented, not what they think should go on in their own image. If you like something and it makes you feel good, you're right where you want to be bro. Good luck with everything...and I hope some of this helps.

yeah I can see where you're comin from. I'll definitely reach that degree of confidence in time. Of course I'd be needin a lot... I mean A TON of help from all you guys here for me to reach that.. Im not a pro when it comes to recording so I try out every suggestion, even the wackiest ones out there, as a way of experimenting with equipment, technique and sound. I'll never know what I'd get till I try it. You're one of the guys who's really helped me a lot. My limits got further when trying to mix this and the stream of consciousness cover. And for that, I thank you!!! And not just you, everybody here also deserves a standing ovation!! I hope you'd still help me with my future mixes. With all that said, CHEERS and lets drink to that!!!!

[Danny Danzi]

Originally Posted by brianinogang

You nailed it! Yeah i was aiming for that "ooh so loud mix" but ended up destroying it i guess. I actually double compressed the track. the first is on the master bus before sending to a mixdown. It sounded good at the time coz i left a 5db headroom and as I recall and the compression was a subtle one, it was still dynamic. but then after eqing during mastering, i decided to compress it a bit further and obviously, pushed it over the limits. haha. It sounded well balanced on my monitors though, but then i again, i didnt double check it with my headphones and my pc "tin can" speakers to check if i over did something on the volume and eq knobs.. Thats what i usually do after mixing so that the errors would just be from the "washed outness" of my ears from the mix, but I was so pumped I skipped those parts. I'm sowing the fruits of impatientness.

Lesson learned then....don't do that! LOL!!

Originally Posted by brianinogang

Yah actually I did. You're one of a kind bro. you noticed that?? even my band mates didnt.haha. Here's what happened, when I first started recording in 2004, this was the very first song that I mixed. Being a young dude at the time, I was fast forwarding myself to become better. I ended up eqing everything without a backup of the original files.... but, to be fair with myself, that was also the time that I was learning how to use a computer aside from gaming and word applications. Hahaha. No idea of needing backups or anything else when it comes to audio exept how to use the very basic functions of my DAW. Ok to make the long story short, I eq'd the cymbals massively because when played on solo, I thought it sucked. I wanted it to sound like what was coming out from my favorite records and never realized that I would need that small suckiness of a sound as a component to make the drum mix better in the end. hahah. mistakes of life huh?? From what i remember I eq'd everything scooped in the middle and saved it. I was using cool edit back then and did not know how to use a bus and real time usage of effects in that DAW. by the way, can you fill me in on "master sweeping"?

Yeah, I noticed it. I'm sickening, I know. I make myself sick with this shit sometimes man. I literally have to turn parts of myself off when I listen to things or I sometimes can't enjoy them. Wait till the dude that posted a tune on here last night reads I could tell the verb that was used on his voice was a mono verb. LOL!! He's gonna be like "dude, you need help!" LOL!!

You're right...sometimes lower fidelity on certain things can make a difference. Another thing I've learned Bri, is I never solo something up and eq it other than to fix an issue. If you solo everything up and eq, when you fire up the rest of the mix, 9 out of 10 times, it's not going to work unless you're truly gifted and have found a niche` in that area. Some guys can do it...most of the people I know, can't. Your best bet is to work in sections...eq the drum kit with the bass so you create the rhythm section as an entity...then fly the guitars in after...see how it works, and then continue to tweak as a unit there. This is the core of your sound.

As for "master sweeping" that was a typo on my part. LOL!! It should have read " master (comma) sweeping". So, it would be this. "You can either get rid of it (preferably) in the mix, or just phase it out when you master, sweeping in on it at about 8k-12k most times."

So there is no such thing as master sweeping. Actually, I guess you could call it that...but what I was trying to make you do was when you are mastering, sweep through your highs with a pretty hot boost in level just to see where you hear the sizzle coming in. As soon as you find it, dial out the level until it sounds less sizzly, with me now?

Originally Posted by brianinogang

I do have an untuned room. Just my good old sleeping quarter and thats it. no bass traps and everything but im planning to treat that. I'm still reading this book about acoustics and Im learning a lot from it. Application would definitely be there in one year. Yes when I played it on my "tin can" speakers, I also realized that the bass was destroying it. vocals were down at some points especially on the chorus parts and also the guitar solo. Dude are you using magic or somethin like it?? bro, you have SUPERB ears noticing everything that i have noticed in my end and the ones i havent as well!!!!

I get yelled at for saying this all the time....and I can't tell you how many fights I've been in with people....but I STILL believe that room tuning (other than for listening to your mix and being able to make the right calls) is a load of hype and horseshit. This only comes into play when you mic at far distances. Anything close mic'd...the room will NOT make a difference. No one will tell me different, and I will fight this issue until I'm dead and gone. I have several nice studios at my disposal....pro studio's...like sick pro. Pro tuned rooms...you name it, they have it.

Why do I get the same results as them when I prove my point and record in a 12x12 untreated room with sliding glass doors, big screen TV, books, shelves, a game collection from Atari to Xbox 360, amps, racks, and other crap all over the room...how is it possible? Am I lucky, do I just know what I'm doing or is it the fact that my room means nothing? Do we hear huge room sounds on guitars these days? Absolutely not. Drums...yeah, but it's controlled room and it's nothing you can't get from running a few impulses if you don't have a huge room. In my real studio (when I'm not working in my little 12x12 jail cell) the room I use is cool, but you only hear it when I blend in massive over-heads and I just don't do that.

My buddy gave me a mix to master for him. The drums were so huge and sounding good that we had to scale down the room mics. Sure, we liked the huge room sound he got with the drums, but there comes a time when we have to think about what is better for the mix. Just because somethnig is bigger or roomier doesn't mean it's going to be better for the mix. He still used room ambiance....but it wasn't something that was over-kill and he had complete control over it.

Whether he had room tuning or not....I can't tell you. The dude knows his shit and has an incredible drum room and studio...so knowing him and how he's as anal as me, I'm sure he's room tuned. But even at that, room tuned or not, if too much of it comes through, it can wreak havoc on the rest of your mix. He and I both feel we made the right decision backing down the room artifacts. It tightened up the mix and really made it sound great.

How about bass....nothing worse than room enhanced bass for God sakes. LOL! I just don't like that heavily processed room sound for anything other than to be used as an enhancement, not in place of making a sound bigger. Listen to all the stuff today...everything is up front and in your face, isn't it? Can you even hear the rooms in most recordings other than drums or maybe a vocal or lead guitar? I got some good ears bro...and I sure can't hear anything that is dominating. Sure, you can hear it...but it's more for enhancement purposes in the mix to add color...not domination. Here's my room tuning....eq the overheads/room mics and back them down to blend in with the direct mic'd sounds. Simple as that. If something IS really creating a problem, a blanket usually fixes the problem. Ever listen to drum programs like EZD or BFD? Sure they have some room stuff going on, but do you know what "I" hear mostly? Vibrations from the other drums bleeding into each other...not so much the room they are in.

I'd back some of this up and post some recordings, but some things are better left unsaid/unheard. WilljRockstar has heard a few of my current pieces that I've never released. (nothing that's on any of my sites...I soo need to update those with some new stuff I've been doing lol) He knows I can back up all that I say about this particular subject. But I'm not here to prove anything....just help out whenever I can.

Now for your control room....you absolutely need to have something that is allowing your monitors to give you true sound. I chose IK Multimedia ARC as my source of correction. It's a bit pricey, but it tuned my monitors and compensates for the errors in my room and then calibrates everything. You don't get one sweet spot...you get several. When a dude comes to professionally tune your room...he tunes it in your sweet spot area. He sets an eq you provide and blows noise through it and it tells him what freqs your room is over-accentuating and what ones may be missing.

ARC does this in every place you put it. Meaning, for my particular room, I took 18 measurements. That's 18 spots where my room was corrected and fixed withing the calibration to my monitors. When I listen to something, it sounds great no matter where I am in my room and when I export a mix, it sounds like it sounded in my room on all other systems. I did this ARC correction with every set of monitors I own and it's changed my life. What took me a month to mix now takes about 2-4 hours tops. I think ARC is a necessity for every engineer whether they be hobbiest or pro. It simply works, so help me God. (continued)