Rockwool vs Sonex Acoustic Treament

[brandondrury]

Im unsure about whether to go sown the Rockwool route or Sonex route. Sonex sounds more appealing to me although im not sure. Maybe both? I gues i could mount some rockwool on ceilings and walls, cover with fabric, and buy ply wood and sonex for sound walls too .....How does this sound? Stupid?...or expensive?. My room is about 10ft by 15ft and about 10ft high.

I thought you said you had a "big" room. This is probably a lot closer to a "small" room. However, with a little treatment, you can make it sound good. If all you are doing is acoustic guitar and vocals, you really don't need THAT much treatment. It's easy to work around these.

I'd forget the Sonex though. Sonex is not bad, necessarily. It just doesn't absorb much low end. Not nearly as much as Rockwool, Owens-Corning 703, etc.

From the mp3 you posted, I didn't hear a room problem really. So if you happen to run into problems in the future, I'd highly recommend that you just put your absorption fairly close to you or the mics. This doesn't have to be a fortress. You are simply trying to reduce some of the reflections. And only do this when you need to. Otherwise, forget the treatment all together.

Now, I'm talking about tracking here. If you are talking about treating a control for mixing, the situation is entirely different. Just let me know.

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

No matter what material you use remember that the further you space the absorber from the wall, the more effective it will be at absorbing all frequencies. Sound travels in wavelengths. During the course of a these wavelengths the sound will reach a point of maximum and minimum velocity. Its maximum velocities are at the 1/4 and 3/4 point of the wave, while the minimum is at the half way point, beginning and end. The point where a wave reaches a reflective surface its velocity is at its absolute minimum before being reflected. So, an absorber placed directly on a reflector will only trap the wave at its minimum and low velocities. When spacing the trap away from the wall, it gives the velocity of the wave time to grow. Obviously the further you place it from the wall the more effective it will be at absorbing longer waves (lower frequencies).

Ben

[brandondrury]

Your statements are consistent with all that I've read. However, the physics books don't say things like "your are pretty much wasting your time with a 10'x12'x8' room". That's my live room. With my current work method, I've managed to work around it, mostly.

My control room isn't much better. I think there is a point where distance from the wall is less of an issue when I don't have any room to give.

Brandon

[DogpitStudios]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Your statements are consistent with all that I've read.? ?However, the physics books don't say things like "your are pretty much wasting your time with a 10'x12'x8' room".? That's my live room.? With my current work method, I've managed to work around it, mostly.

My control room isn't much better.? I think there is a point where distance from the wall is less of an issue when I? don't have any room to give.?

Brandon

I never said any room was a waste of time, in fact my solution was to help out people in that exact situation as I have a similar control room situation.

I agree that there is a point where distance from a wall becomes and issue because of a lack of space, this is why I don't believe people should calculate how large air gaps should be but rather they should understand that spacing there panels even a few inches from the wall can help absorb a larger scope of frequencies more effectively and that different spacings, including non at all will cover a larger variety of sounds, and will give you a much flatter response in all cases and places in the room, if a flat response is desired. Most of the time people are absorbing waves to achieve some kind of flatter response or drier sound.

If you are interested in utilizing space to create traps you should read up on sound pressure traps that use wood to create and air tight pressure trap that is eventually deadened by absorbent material inside.

Ben

[DogpitStudios]

Lets talk about the sound of a drum set in a room for a second. You have said yourself, as many other people have said, that a drum will sound different at every different distance. Well this works with the same explanation. Different frequencies hit there peaks and minimums at certain points of there travel (in 1/4 increments to be specific). Because of this some frequencies will be accented a foot away that are then scooped at 2 feet, but an other frequency may be accented here that is scooped somewhere else.

Ben

[Superdude]

I have a home studio setup-All in one room. ie.Recording +tracking. Id like to record my old drummer soon and do and good job of it, so now i think it is important to deaden these reflections.

If im listening and mixing infront of my speakers, i am in this sweet spot where everything seems clear sounding--->but the moment i stand up and walk around the room, the sound from the speakers changes drastisally. eg.A few weeks ago i fixed my monitoring subwoofer and set it up; Sitting in the sweet spot, the bass from the sub didnt sound boomy or very loud, but again, once i walked around the room, the bass sounded VERY loud and VERY boomy. Surely this is down to the lack of sound treatment. (which Brandon originally pointed out to me)

So im gonna listen to you and forget about sonex -----Just going to get Rockwool (cover ply wood or fiberglass sheets) and some bass traps?? I think maybe>the sooner the better, but it wont be for at least a month

[dach]

For budget, Mineral Wool.... and wear your gloves and long shirts (I guess some call it Rockwool)... 4lb density is the best but a pain to work with. 8lb is much easier to cut and shape but may be too absorbent. The other option is 703 which is more expensive.

There are plans for absorbers, bass traps, gobo's all over the net... google away!

[DogpitStudios]

www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html is a very nice plan with an explanation of the basics of bass waves and bass traps and how these traps work.

[brandondrury]

I never said any room was a waste of time, in fact my solution was to help out people in that exact situation as I have a similar control room situation.

No, you didn't say that. I'm not sure where you got that idea. The big boys on other forums have told me that you will never get great rock drum sounds in a 10x12x8 room. I was making a point that there is a difference between the physics books and real world engineering. The kind of drum sounds that I want simply can not be achieved in a room with the dimensions mentioned. No treatment in the world will make the room sound 8 times larger. Again, I'm focusing on the tracking side of things.

Lets talk about the sound of a drum set in a room for a second. You have said yourself, as many other people have said, that a drum will sound different at every different distance. Well this works with the same explanation. Different frequencies hit there peaks and minimums at certain points of there travel (in 1/4 increments to be specific). Because of this some frequencies will be accented a foot away that are then scooped at 2 feet, but an other frequency may be accented here that is scooped somewhere else.

Agreed.

If im listening and mixing infront of my speakers, i am in this sweet spot where everything seems clear sounding--->but the moment i stand up and walk around the room, the sound from the speakers changes drastisally.

Welcolme to home recording. This acoustics thing is a bitch. Now we are talking about control room acoustics. This is much different than live room acoustics. 3 or 4 sheets of Rockwool (the brand I bought...also called "mineral wool") can save acoustic guitars, vocals, etc from boxiness. However, this will not be near enough to clean up a control room's low end response.

I think you should do some hardcore research on "bass traps". You'll learn a lot.

For what it's worth, I've only heard one control room in my entire life where the low end response didn't change. You can see it here: http://www.recordingreview.com/forum...hp?topic=829.0

Wagener's room had all kinds of low end problems without his tube trap things. The Soundstage Studios control room was better, but still not what I would call GREAT. The room with the Neve I tracked drums in had lots of low end deviations as well. Most hit records were mixed in rooms that were not perfect.

While I highly recommend treating your room the best you can, you need to realize that you will still have peaks and dips in the low end when you walk around. There is very little way around it.

I use these dips and valleys to my advantage. Here's how. Pop in a major label recording that sounds awesome and walk around the room. Find the boomiest spot. LIsten very closely. Learn that boominess. Then put in your own mix. In that same spot listen to the nature of the boominess. This one spot will tell you a lot about the low end in your mixes. I've had mixes where I got up and said "Holy shit!" because I had WAY too much boom when standing in my boom spot. Good. Now I need to start cleaning up the low end.

I make changes and then walk back to my spot again. When it sounds about right (but still quite boomy) I know I'm probably okay.


Brandon

[matainais]

I'd like to bring the discussion a little bit back to the original question "rockwool vs sonex"... I am considering some room treatment for my home "studio". (the room is like 3,5mx7,something) There is no way i can do serious recording here, i am only occasionally mixing some stuff recorded elsewhere.
The problem that arouse during a discussion about building acoustic traps was - rockwool is a mineral wool... it tends to "dust". I have to live in this room, so i dont want to be breathing some mineral wool without even knowing it. A friend of mine who is a building engineer (well-a becoming one) said that to properly isolate the rockwool panels, i would have to use a very dense material to cover them. but then again - a dense surface would be pretty reflective... I quess that covering the rockwool with a dense material and then with a few layers of something not so dense could do the trick... Right?