M-Audio Delta 1010 vs Terratec Phase 88 Rack FW

[sphinx_uk]

Hi all

I'm new to this forum and have been reading through past posts now for a few days. You guys really seem to know what youre talking about and give great advice. I have learnt so much already!

So the time has come to ask my first question...

I have slowly progressed over the years (from the age of 15) in the art of home recording, mainly bands that i have been in. I started off with a microphone in the middle of the room plugged into a cassette recorder, then a 4 track then onto fostex VF80 but have come to the point where i want to be able to record multiple tracks at once. The fostex VF80 is great but im limited to 2 tracks at once so i have decided to utilise my PC.

I have been looking through the home recording software tool created by brandondrury which has given me some ideas and have narrowed my choice to the following:

M-Audio Delta 1010 @ £249 http://www.nusystems.co.uk/music/214...Delta+1010.htm

TERRATEC PHASE 88 RACK FW @ £204 http://www.thomann.de/gb/terratec_phase_88_rack_fw.htm

my question is which one is best? Now i know you will say "that depends on what youre using it for". So i'll tell you...

Currently i have a mixer which i mic up my drum kit and get what i think is a good balance and then take 2 channels out of it and record it. Obviously there is no further adjustment that can be made to levels of each individual drum. So i want to mic my kit and use the direct outs of my mixer to send 8 channels to my PC where they will record as seperate tracks and therefore enable me to adjust levels, i.e. make bass drum louder etc. As for other instruments overdubbing etc will follow.

So which one should i go for. They both seem to record the same quality (24-bit/96kHz), but one is firewire and the other is a PCi card connection so, will the firewire have a greater latency and therefore make it difficult to over dub because of this delay or will the PCi card take too much CPU resources from my PC? Also do any of them come with any software? I have Cubase VST? I'm a bit confused.

If it helps, I have an XP3000+ CPU and 1 Gig of DDR400 RAM.

One final question... i already have a Creative Audigy Platinum2 soundcard installed. Would i have to remove this if chosing the PCi card route to avoid incompatibilities?

Many thanks and so so sorry for the long post, just trying to get all details in.

[Babazon]

m a u d i o

there are many inputs (and outputs) you can even plug in your drum microphones 1 by 1 and mix them at pc. your computer has enough specs to run the asio sound driver that comes with m audio and you should be ok with any recording software (you need to learn first, hurts a lot i tell you)

Well you dont have to remove your other card for maudio, it can even work parallel with 3 other maudio cards. But Creative is known to produce shit quality products for expensive prices and they tend to break a lot. So you should remove the creative, you wont use it anyway.

Pci connects directly to the bus, so whenever your card's output input enable signals are not in the high-z state your music date input output flows in and out of your card with each clock signal (ok advanced info here) , Firewire has 1 more port, so 1 more element, You cannot possibly notice the difference between a firewire (not usb) connected recording hardware and a pci one, but a computer engineer here tells you to use the pci one

Maudio comes with some silly software called ableton live which is good for "live" recording. Cubase is so superior to it tbh. Setting up the drivers inputs outputs may be hard at first, may take a day to figure out. My advice is find a friend who knows the shit about maudio/software integration (cubase automatically detects driver and card, however)

The cpu resource your pci takes from your pc is.. Very little with that spec. Currently i m recording with my maudio and the performance monitor on my logitech g15 kboard's lcd says cpu 8% ram 14% .

Maudio mic inputs have preset preamps for dynamic mics. (No phantom power )

Glad if helped.

[sphinx_uk]

he he sounds like youre a fan of the M Audio for sure! Everything you have said there is a great help.

Just a few more questions if i may?

the Phase 88 also has 8 line inputs plus 2 XLR which have the option to use phantom power on. I have 2 condensor mics that need this. You mentioned that the M Audio have preset inputs, does this mean that with the +4db preset phantom power is not needed?

Sorry i'm just trying to justify whether i need to spend an extra £50. If the quality and performance are better than i guess its worth it... im just on a bit of a budget

thanks again

[brandondrury]

They both seem to record the same quality (24-bit/96kHz),

Don't mistake sample rate and bit depth for "quality". It doesn't really work that way, exactly. I record at 24 bit @ 44.1Khz because it's the best for me, uses less resources, and the difference isn't worth messing with anyway. Until you have absolutely conquered all things audio, I wouldn't worry much about the sample rate. You have WAY bigger problem to deal with.

I'd assume the sound quality is the same on both units. If there is a difference, the results would be so similar that no one would ever notice a difference.

one is firewire and the other is a PCi card connection so, will the firewire have a greater latency and therefore make it difficult to over dub because of this delay or will the PCi card take too much CPU resources from my PC?

No, I'd expect the latency to be the same for both PCI and Firewire. I own 2 Delta 1010s and have been extremely happy with them. I hate the fact that I can't use the Delta 1010s with a laptop. Portability would have been nice and gotten me a few extra gigs.

Also do any of them come with any software? I have Cubase VST? I'm a bit confused

If the Soundcard Wizard didn't say, this means the ads didn't exactly specify if there was software or not. You'll need to check with whoever you are ordering from to see if any software is included.

One final question... i already have a Creative Audigy Platinum2 soundcard installed. Would i have to remove this if chosing the PCi card route to avoid incompatibilities?

I'm not sure what you would need it for. If the Audigy really has something useful in it, you should be able to keep it in there. However, there is a chance that there will be conflicts. If so, deal with those conflicts when they occur.

You cannot possibly notice the difference between a firewire (not usb) connected recording hardware and a pci one, but a computer engineer here tells you to use the pci one

If you can't possibly tell a difference between Firewire and PCI, why would a person go with PCI (except to save money). I've had to turn turn down recordings because my rig wasn't portable and the nature of the gigs required that.

I'm aware that some Firewire audio interfaces need specific chipsets and such, but other than the initial setup requirements, it seams that Firewire is just as good of computer connection method as any.

If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear more.

Maudio comes with some silly software called ableton live which is good for "live" recording. Cubase is so superior to it tbh.

I am a huge Cubase fan. With that said, I know more and more people who are extremely happy with the real deal version of Ableton (not the lite version). With that said, I'd still recommend Cubase.

the Phase 88 also has 8 line inputs plus 2 XLR which have the option to use phantom power on. I have 2 condensor mics that need this.

Does your mixer not have phantom power? Generally speaking, phantom power is something that is taken care on the preamp.

You mentioned that the M Audio have preset inputs,

I don't know what this means.

does this mean that with the +4db preset phantom power is not needed?

Whether you go with +4db or -10db will not make a difference on whether a mic requires phantom power or not. This whole +4db / -10dB has nothing to do with quality. It's just a way for equipment to interconnect. I have no clue how I've set mine up. I just get them working and that's the end of it. Don't put much thought into this part of the deal. You've got about 5,000 other things to figure out.

Sorry i'm just trying to justify whether i need to spend an extra £50. If the quality and performance are better than i guess its worth it... im just on a bit of a budget

The features have been laid out. I can vouch for the reliability of the Delta 1010s as I've had mine for nearly 6 years. However, only you can decide which audio interface is right for you based on the features given. PCI means you must have a tower computer at all times. This is the one thing I wish I could change about the Delta 1010. If you never expect to need portability, the Delta 1010 is a good choice.

In the end, if both meet your needs, do a search to find out of people are having problems with reliability. If either unit is reliable, go with the cheapest one.

Brandon

[sphinx_uk]

hmmm the plot thickens, i didnt realise you could run more than one of the Delta 1010's. I like the sound of this for future expansion if needed.

Can more than 1 Phase 88 be plugged into a PC as mine has 2 firewire ports. Or is it a case of linking these in a chain, i.e. plugging one rack into the other and then that one into the PC?

Is there anyone on these boards that can vouch for the reliability of the Phase 88? I cant find much on the web after googling for customer experiences of this produce, it gets good reviews but perhaps the fact that you guys have used the D1010 and not the phase 88 says something in itself.

[brandondrury]

i didnt realise you could run more than one of the Delta 1010's. I like the sound of this for future expansion if needed.

These days, it's my understanding that you can run multiple audio interfaces with just about any brand. I would stick to the same brand and model, however.

Is there anyone on these boards that can vouch for the reliability of the Phase 88?

I only heard about the Phase 88 when I created the sound card tool. Before that, I had no idea.

Well, there was a day back in 2001 when I was in your boat and I just jumped on the Delta 1010. I ended up getting a great deal on the second one and realized that I needed 16 inputs for recording live bands (which I later bumped up to 20 inputs using external AD/DAs).

I had no idea about the company M-Audio. Back then the "Echo" products were much more popular. Anyway, the M-Audio Delta 1010 has been extremely reliable to me. They've got their drivers figured out now as well. Again, the ONLY thing I would change about the M-Audio is the PCI card. I hate not have portability. Other than that, it's a great audio interface. I've done zillions of recordings with it.

Having said that, as long as the other manufacturer has a solid warantee and the price is significantly lower, I'd go with the least expensive option that met my needs. Since you are on a budget, every dollar is critical.

Just because 100 people like the Delta 1010 does not mean that you will.

Brandon

[sphinx_uk]

ok im close to making my decision now, thankyou again for you time on this subject.

I was heading towards the Phase 88 on price reasons but then when i looked at the Phase 88's software control panel i saw and read that there is no level metering on it. There are LED's on the rack which show clipping level but that is it.

the delta1010 has level metering in its control panel which is nice but what i dont understand is how you can control the input level of each analogue input?

Does the software reduce the gain of each of the line in's? Or is it literally a 2 choice senario, i.e. you can have +4db or -10db and any finer adjustment must be donw vai an external mixer before the signal hits the rack?

The Phase 88 has knobs on the front of the rack to adjust the input level but as i said there is no software meter.

So since i have Cubasis VST CE can i control the volume input/gain (if that is the same thing) with this program therefore rendering the volume knobs on the Phase 88 useless? Or would this only work on the D1010 as this has no hardwired volume control?

[brandondrury]

I was heading towards the Phase 88 on price reasons but then when i looked at the Phase 88's software control panel i saw and read that there is no level metering on it. There are LED's on the rack which show clipping level but that is it.

This shouldn't be much of an issue. I've NEVER used the metering in that little M-Audio control panel gadget. I don't even know what the control panel does accept for adjusting latency. Don't let this be a factor for you.

You have all the metering you'll need in your recording software and in your ears.

the delta1010 has level metering in its control panel which is nice but what i dont understand is how you can control the input level of each analogue input?

This accomplished with preamps. You may want to re-read the soundcard wizard if you are not for sure what preamps are.

Does the software reduce the gain of each of the line in's?

Nope. That's all done with preamps. On extremely hot signals, you'll need what's called "pad" to knock the signal down but this is quite rare.

you can have +4db or -10db and any finer adjustment must be donw vai an external mixer before the signal hits the rack?

This is more or less correct. You do need to figure out which method your rig uses. I'm about 51% sure that my rig is running at -10db.

I'd say a more correct assessment situation goes like this:
You set the level thingies (+4 or -10) to whatever they are supposed to be set on (you'll instantly know if this is screwed up). After that, you forget about that setting and rely 100% on your preamps to control level. Don't make a big deal about this +4 or -10 junk. It's not that big of deal. In fact, I don't think it's ever come up on this forum in the 1.5 years it's been up.

The Phase 88 has knobs on the front of the rack to adjust the input level but as i said there is no software meter.

This is a handy feature. You do have a meter. It's in your recording software.

So since i have Cubasis VST CE can i control the volume input/gain (if that is the same thing) with this program therefore rendering the volume knobs on the Phase 88 useless?

No. Software does not replace what preamps do.

Now, just to clarify things, there are some digitally controlled preamps. These are rare, but you may stumble on them. It's possible to buy preamps that are controlled by software. The odds of you doing this are 0% and the reasons to go this route are 0%. I just wanted to let you know that this kind of technology does exist.

The software is there to control levels in mixing and such. It's up to your front end to get the level correct first.

Or would this only work on the D1010 as this has no hardwired volume control?

Be careful with your use of "volume control". This makes me think you are speaking of the output of the Delta 1010 (used for mixing or possible monitoring).

The Delta 1010 was made back in the day where it was given to buy a mixer and an audio interface. As far as I'm concerned, those days are pretty much over.


Brandon

[DT Chris]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

If the Audigy really has something useful in it, you should be able to keep it in there. However, there is a chance that there will be conflicts. If so, deal with those conflicts when they occur.

This may sound like a dumb question, but will the sound card coming with the M-Audio replace the sound card in my rig? As in, it will still allow me to play music, game sounds (5.1-7.1 Sound) per normal when I'm not using it to record?

I was eyeballing the Creative Platininum Pro card (just for the plug-in interface), but with this M-Audio interface, that'd be more what I'm looking for.

[sphinx_uk]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

This is a handy feature. You do have a meter. It's in your recording software.

Yes a handy feature that is making me swing towards the Phase 88 again.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

The Delta 1010 was made back in the day where it was given to buy a mixer and an audio interface.

Ok, they way i had it in my head was:-

plug 8 mics into 8 channels on mixer (use mixer as pre-amps),

take 8 lines out from mixer (my mixer has a 1/4" jack line out for each individual channel as well as the master out, 2 XLR's)

feed those 8 lines into the phase 88/D1010

assign each input to a track in Cubase and record at once.

DONE?!?

also off on a tangent bit, i'm assuming its better to run a flat EQ through the mixer and alter EQ with the software when mixing down, rather than, lets say, adding top and bottom freq.to the bass drum channel on the mixer?