The Loudness WAR

[yancrazy]

Hey guys, when my band recorded its first album we came away with what we considered at the time to be pretty damn decent. But after a while i noticed that the mastering was perhaps running a little hot.

This was the 1st time i had co produced something, but i had no idea when it came to the mastering...it was just kinda taken care of.

Anyhow please give me some feedback on whether you think this song fell prey to the dreaded loudness war going on right now in L.A.

This isnt a plug for the band its a genuine question as im a firm believer in quality not quantity.

[richiebee]

It's really loud, but I don't hear any horrible artifacts that put it in the 'loud to the detriment of everything else'. In fact, I think it sounds really clean.

Not my style of music but I think it sounds like a great production.

[yancrazy]

I guess the question really is ....has the track lost any of its dynamics due to the mastering procss in the search for the loudest recording on the planet?

[Audio~Geek]

we can't hear if it's lost dynamics because only you have heard it with dynamics. (and because you've deafened us. )
Dynamics starts with the arrangement.

I do hear clicks in the file

[TonyB]

Relatively speaking it doesn't sound bad. I've heard much worse squashing.

[brandondrury]

Quit being a pussy!

You've got an AWESOME sounding modern rock recording here (really cool song). I don't say either of those things too often. Enjoy it!

By getting caught up in this loudness war you are doing little more than asking daddy for permission to fuck in the car on prom night. Dad can figure out your naughty excursions later. You don't need permission to make a product that the buying public wants. You obviously are very skilled at achieving that. Trust you instincts when it comes to loudness too.

There is nothing excessively squashed sounding about this. Is that what you are asking?

The old timers who think drum sounds ended with The Who (that's where drum sounds started!) are going to bitch and moan about compression this and compression that. Let them ride sail boat across the world. I'm taking a plane. While maybe the new Metallica record sounding different on Guitar Hero may have alerted 250 people in the general public about the problems of over limiting, so what. If you have to ask if your product is ruined, it's clearly not ruined. I have had that happen to me and I was MAD when I heard the results.

This song is REALLY good! I'm all but given up on rock music, but I'd even buy this. That doesn't happen much. I'm jaded old (REALLY old for being only 28) asshole.

Brandon

[yancrazy]

Haha, i converted someone muahahaha.

But on a serious note...i have listened to it on a few different hifi's and on a select few of those listenings i noticed that the initial kick ins quite often sounded like they were being cancelled out....as if some kind of limiter jumps in and says "hang on a sec, this is far too loud". It may just have been the stereo itself that 'DID' have a limiter....either way i kept saying this shouldnt be doing this.

But dont get me wrong i was very happy with the recording.

[neilwilkes]

If you're seriously worried about this problem - and you should be too - pop over to this site DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!
and sign up for the Dynamic Range meter as well - made by Alogrithmix.
The problem with excessive compression & too much peak limiting is that the dynamic range suffers greatly as a result making the track tiring to listen to.
A really good example of how toi ruin an album is KT Tunstall's first outing "Eye to the Telescope". Sounds okay-ish on my partners little sub/satellite setup, but played from the CD on my studio Adams it is literally unlistenable. So distorted in places it's not funny.

Your track - Sorry, but I cannot tell anything from an MP3. Try running the WAV file through the standalone version of the DR meter on the site linked above.

Good Luck - dynamics are what music is all about. Too little dynamic & people start reminiscing about hoiw much better Vinyl sounded compared to Digital.
Which of course is nonsense - S/N ratio of vinyl is about 40dB with a new record & this gets worse every time you play it. What people are liking the sound of is the inherent 18 to 20dB of headroom on vinyl that has to be there or the thing cannot be cut in the first place.
Done well, Digital CD can have 96dB of DR, and 65,536 digital "requivalents" of analogue voltage levels. 24-bit is a whopping (theoretical) 144dB of DR - altghough AFAIK the best so far achieved is around 124 - 125 dB - with a massive 16,777,216 possible values for each sample.

[TonyB]

Originally Posted by neilwilkes

Sounds okay-ish on my partners little sub/satellite setup, but played from the CD on my studio Adams it is literally unlistenable. So distorted in places it's not funny.

Most people don't have Adam monitors. Most people listen through earbuds, home consumer stereo, and/or computer speakers. KT Tunstall sounds find to me through those media.

Loudness (i.e., compressing the dynamics to h#ll) and sonic distortion (i.e., clipping quick transient peaks) can be an art form (I.e., not just science, dB's and headroom), and is in some genres is acceptable and preferred (just ask my twin sons who have their own band) .

Yes, some of us would love to back to the pure Steely Dan days. But those days are over.

[brandondrury]

It may just have been the stereo itself that 'DID' have a limiter....either way i kept saying this shouldnt be doing this.

That's a different story! If you aren't happy with the sound of your mix here, you need to address it in one way or another. I'd recommend listening to your stereo with a limiter with you favorite cds and see what happens.

The problem with excessive compression & too much peak limiting is that the dynamic range suffers greatly as a result making the track tiring to listen to.

Definitely! But I don't think this track crossed that line. Not on the stereo I do most of my listening on.

A really good example of how toi ruin an album is KT Tunstall's first outing "Eye to the Telescope". Sounds okay-ish on my partners little sub/satellite setup, but played from the CD on my studio Adams it is literally unlistenable. So distorted in places it's not funny.

I think it is harder to listen to hyper limited stuff on studio monitors. I think this stems from the ear getting used to hearing undercompressed audio on the monitors. I developed this little theory when I mixes I had worked on sounded undercompressed everywhere but my studio monitors. I've learned to compensate.

With that said, distortion is distortion. (Whether that is good or bad is up to the ear of the beholder).

Your track - Sorry, but I cannot tell anything from an MP3.

Interesting. I could tell quite a bit. I thought it sounded excellent.

Good Luck - dynamics are what music is all about.

I couldn't disagree more. Emotions are what music is all about. You can see dynamics on meter. You can't see all the Dr. Seuss words (happy, mad, sad, glad) in you recording software. (Maybe via analyzing the brain activity of the listener). If dynamics were everything, all you'd need was a transient hitting -0 followed by a gate pulling it down to - infinity every 10 seconds. It would be the most dynamic and emotionally void music imaginable.

Too little dynamic & people start reminiscing about hoiw much better Vinyl sounded compared to Digital.

Not me. Why? Because I'm 28 years old. The only Vinyl I had was "She'll Be Coming Around The Mountain When She Comes". I was probably 4 years old. The band I recorded this weekend (16 year olds) probably doesn't even know what vinyl is.

I'm curious how many people who shelled out cash for the big Hinder record a few years ago or the latest Nickelback offering are really concerned about whether it sounds better on vinyl or not. I'm guessing it's staggeringly low.

Done well, Digital CD can have 96dB of DR, and 65,536 digital "requivalents" of analogue voltage levels. 24-bit is a whopping (theoretical) 144dB of DR - altghough AFAIK the best so far achieved is around 124 - 125 dB - with a massive 16,777,216 possible values for each sample.

I'm a technical guy. I like math. However, I don't see any correlation between this information and making a recording that truly excites people. This is just "supplemental information" that is entertainment for some.

Most people don't have Adam monitors. Most people listen through earbuds, home consumer stereo, and/or computer speakers.

This gets into my 2-Dimensional Studio Monitor Theory. It's not an issue of good on one side and bad on the other. There are a million systems with a million different frequency responses in a million different rooms. The will all illustrate different details here and there. The high end gear just seems to do a little better job of highlighting these details across the board.

I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't enjoy listening to this mix (scratch that) song on a set of ADAMs monitors.

Yes, some of us would love to back to the pure Steely Dan days. But those days are over.

There are some audio engineering concepts that hold water for Steely Dan, Metallica, and Protest The Hero. There are some "concepts" which don't hold water in other genres and hold the engineer back from best serving his client. This zero distortion idea is bullshit to me because I distort the hell out of most things. If you haven't used British mode on the Distressor EL-8x on the right metal guitars, you haven't lived.

Steely Dan may not do this or that, but I can honestly say that I would be pissed if another engineer made my music sound like Steely Dan. I'd fire him immediately.

Brandon