Church Recording - Cheap MICS - Distorted Signal - HELP !!!

[KABMGMT]

Hi guys (and gals)! I am new here. Maybe someday I can give advice - that'll be a long way off! Here's the situation:

I am a newly drafted “church sound guy” in Southern California. I need some "fatherly advice" from some of you PROS! I need some suggestions with Live Sound / DAW Recording in a church setting. Let me have it - I am not a crybaby! I am computer GURU - however I am a new recruit at sound - but I have had my eyes "open" - I want to learn...

Here’s the situation. I have inherited the following setup: a Mackie CR1604-VLZ Analog Mixer. Through a 100’ snake there are 6 cheap MICS connected: (lead guitar vocal, rhythm guitar vocal, 3 singers) (these Mics I saw at MusiciansFriend – like 3 for $129 like the entry-level Shure PG58 Dynamic Microphone 3-Pack), Instruments: Lead Guitar Direct Box, Rhythm Guitar Direct Box, Bass Direct Box, and Keyboard.

The snake also takes the MAIN outputs and AUX outputs back to the stage area where there are 2 AMPS in an SKB case: a simple Low-Watt Mackie Amplifier for a few stage Monitors and a similar-value Peavey PV-1500 amplifier for the main speakers.

INPUT NEEDED HERE >>>---> We have a couple pieces of equipment not yet utilized: a Behringer 8024 Ultra Curve PRO, a Behringer MULTICOM PRO-XL MDX4600 but I have yet to incorporate them into the setup and would like some suggestions (clear ABC suggestions) as to their hookup – and their system value…

TODAY'S ISSUE: For the recording of the churches' Sunday message I have been routing the main Mackie Mix from the AUX #3 & #4 into a MOTU MKII 828 Firewire unit so as to bring the best possible audio into a PC running Windows XP Pro where I have captured the audio with Sony Sound Forge 7.0 and/or a simple Freeware Audacity program. In both cases I clean up the audio (post recording) using Sony Sound Forge and then burn weekly CDs.

There are a number of issues - but I can filter my concerns down to 3 questions! Last week the MOTU went “south” and is no longer functional. While that is being addressed, I replaced it with an inexpensive $200 M-Audio Fast Track PRO to supply the computer a clean signal via USB. Since the M-Audio is really new to me – I am capturing the feed with the very simple and straight-forward Audacity software.

Today I noticed that the “key signal” (the pastor's message captured by the "best" of one of the cheap mics) coming into the Mackie mixer (via Input #1) was distorted. I was monitoring the signal through the M-Audio headphone jack for recording purposes (via the Mackie CR-1604’s AUX SEND signal). In order to get sufficient-enough signal at the M-Audio box I was needing the Mackie's Input #1 trimmer set at significant +Db at 3 PM! Unity for the trimmer pot is 180-degree left at 9 AM.

As background information, - - - even without worrying about recording - - - it is necessary to keep this pot at 12 NOON for the main house AMPS to give us a decent house audio level. When I was experimenting today with the M-Audio to ATTEMPT to get a “clean” signal – I was unable to do get a non-distorted signal UNLESS the trimmer was at “U” (unity). When the Mackie Mixer’s Line #1 Trimmer is set straight UP or 90-Degrees right (12 noon to 3 pm) there is notable distortion on headphones - not so much in the noisy "house environment.". I checked the other mics too. Similar situation.

Main questions???

1) Would better MICS send more signal through the snake to the Mackie so that the trim could be set at the 9 AM “U” (unity) setting?

2) With the current MICS - - - or even with better MICS - - - are MIC Pre-Amps a good idea?

3) If Pre-Amps are a "good idea," are the mic pre-amps set up at the audio desk between the snake and the Mackie Mixer inputs? Why the question? I have seen Pre-Amps set-up at the recording booth in a studio situation - BUT - I have ALSO SEEN them on the floor (on-stage) as if being used as a "Direct-Box."

Thank you! I hope that these are not TOO STUPID of questions for this forum...

[brandondrury]

For the recording of the churches' Sunday message I have been routing the main Mackie Mix from the AUX #3 & #4 into a MOTU MKII 828 Firewire unit

How are you sending the Stereo out / 2 bus / "main Mackie mix" out using Aux's 3 and 4? I've never seen a mixer that can send an aux from the master fader. Explain to me how you've got this hooked up, because something sounds weird.

How hot are you setting the Aux 3 and 4 outputs? Is it possible that you are cranking up the preamp and running that into an aux that has been turned down?

Today I noticed that the “key signal” (the pastor's message captured by the "best" of one of the cheap mics) coming into the Mackie mixer (via Input #1) was distorted. I was monitoring the signal through the M-Audio headphone jack for recording purposes (via the Mackie CR-1604’s AUX SEND signal). In order to get sufficient-enough signal at the M-Audio box I was needing the Mackie's Input #1 trimmer set at significant +Db at 3 PM! Unity for the trimmer pot is 180-degree left at 9 AM.

3PM on a Mackie preamp is typical for low output mics on non-loud sources. You'll get some hiss, unfortunately. I'm guessing your pastor dude isn't using a condenser. It sounds like he's using a dynamic of some kind.

Ideally, you wouldn't want to cross the threshold in the Mackie where the hiss grows exponentially. If you could, you'd be better off backing off the Mackie and using more gain in the M-Audio box (It has preamps right?). Your gain structure may not allow for that in your live sound mix, however.

When I was experimenting today with the M-Audio to ATTEMPT to get a “clean” signal – I was unable to do get a non-distorted signal UNLESS the trimmer was at “U” (unity).

Is it clipping? Are you overloading the input? Is there a read light that comes one when Pastor dude talks?

My gut says that the rig isn't clipping but the sound the plosives are possibly overloading the mic (or something else is going on before the mic) and adjusting the preamp level down to unity just made the signal super quiet.

Does it sound distorted in the PA? What about in the headphone out of the Mackie?

It's also possible that the mixer is getting overloaded somewhere else. I'm very

1) Would better MICS send more signal through the snake to the Mackie so that the trim could be set at the 9 AM “U” (unity) setting?

"Better" is a tricky word. A lot of $3,000 mics are very low output. A lot of $50 condensers are high output.

I've never seen a preamp that distorted a signal simply because it's gain was set in between 12 and 3 o clock. Preamps distort because they get overloaded or the signal coming out of the preamp overloads whatever comes next in line. In other words, I've got a feeling that high output mics are not the answer. I'd expect a mic with 10dB more gain will distort with the preamp set 10dB lower. (Assuming there is nothing wrong with the mics to being with).

2) With the current MICS - - - or even with better MICS - - - are MIC Pre-Amps a good idea?

Don't even think about preamps. You couldn't possibly finding a less bang for your buck in your current situation. If you don't believe me, check out my preamp shootout.

3) If Pre-Amps are a "good idea," are the mic pre-amps set up at the audio desk between the snake and the Mackie Mixer inputs? Why the question? I have seen Pre-Amps set-up at the recording booth in a studio situation - BUT - I have ALSO SEEN them on the floor (on-stage) as if being used as a "Direct-Box."

There can be a relatively tiny benefit to boosting the signal before it goes through 500 feet of cable. You get into benefits of inductance and capacitance. This is something you could experiment with if you had a great rig and money to blow.

However, in this case, you have a problem. In other words, somethig is malfunctioning. So the last place you need to look is gear upgrades. You need to figure out what is clipping and where in that mixer.

Are you using the inserts on the Mackie? If I were you, when your pastor guy is talking, I'd put a 1/4" cable into the insert of the paster guy's channel. Then, pull it out about half an inch. It'll snap into place. This will give you a direct tap right of that preamp and bypass all EQ and such. Run that into your M-Audio box and listen. Does it distort? If it does, then the problem is either your M-Audio box, that preamp in the Mackie or something before the Mackie (like a bad mic or something).

Brandon