Writing a song with no "pop" structure

[Eeeff]

Hey all,

Like everyone else on this forum, I am a musician. I want to write music and I have been, but haven't fully completed a song before. When it comes to writing music I absolutely cannot stand the "pop" structure of it. What I mean by this is the whole "Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus" layout. My main influence in music is Tool and Thrice (which do often use the "pop" layout I described but still) and possibly some BT providing I had the equipment for such a thing.

So here's my problem. When it comes to writing a melody, I can do it fine. When it comes to writing other melodies that can be seen in the same song as the first one, I am fine. But when it comes to bringing everything together and creating transitions and trying to build on a song rather than simply looping it, I am in great need of help.

Could anyone direct me to an answer?
Thanks.

[EnSkorSang]

There is noooooooooooooooo answer. But isnt writing a melody then writing another one that can be seen in the same song, kind of the same as succumbing to the verse/chorous structure.
If you wanna look at other structures, look no further than romantic/classical/baroque era music. or even 1940s music hall (george gershwin) music. YES, they are not at all the genre you want (probably) but, there was no such thing as verse/chorous then (cept in folk) so the structures vary..
transitions are often helped along with modulations and cadences, which can be wiki'd...
In modern music, an transition is often 'not' a transition however...often it is a change in tune (over the same basic structure) and rhythm associated with the lyrics..

[Eeeff]

Not exactly what I was driving at, but thanks. After I've written a melody, I write another one that I could see being in the same song, and it works, but connecting them is a challenge. I've used music theory too much (because I studied theory in university for a couple years) and I'm trying to do this with ignorance to authentic cadences and modulations and everything of the sort and trust my ears, not formal text.

[Tony Ramone]

When you're writing a song I find it flows much better if you just follow the music rather than trying to force it.
Go with what sounds good. I can't count the amount of times I've abandoned songs because I had one good riff and then tried to force myself to build something else around it using various methods. This inevitably leads to me hating the song and scrapping it.
Then I'll hear a particular drum beat and write a pop-punk song in about 5 minutes

[tylerxfury]

i used to be in sort of the same problem youre in
i had trouble with transitions and i hated certain nit-picky musician details
for one, dont be afraid to use the same chord twice... that always makes strengthening the key of the song easier
try something like verse chorus bridge verse chorus outro
unless you want to write non-repeating riffs then you have to conform to some eventual structure
as far as transitions, dont think theory
slide notes or play chords in between the last chord of a verse and the first chord of a chorus... find new chords that seem absurd
sometimes the new mixture of notes may be perfect for the transition you have in your head

best of luck in composing music

[Tony Ramone]

Listen to propagandhi

[Danny Danzi]

Eeeff, that is an excellent question. Unfortunately, it's also extremely difficult to answer. I'm a pop writer myself and for many years, fought against it because I was so into being progressive and musically stimulating. One day, I stopped stressing myself out and just wrote what I heard in my heard not trying to classify what it would be.

The toughest thing about segues or piecing things together if you will, is that it's more a feel thing than it is a theoretical concept or a "direct" straight, means of transportation. It's like trying to teach someone how to phrase melodically on a guitar. You can give them examples and teach them melodic passages etc, but you can't teach them how to express in their own words.

My suggestion would be, how about if you thought in "formulas" or, pre-determined blue-prints of your songs? Meaning, try to create a rough structure of how you want to go about the ideas you have up. For example, try thinking of the entire song as an illustration or movie, book....use slightly conceptual thinking patterns.

When you listen to one of your ideas, what do you feel? What's the first mood it brings on for you? I try to base my stuff on a beginning, middle, climax and an end just like a movie or a book. Do I open with a bang, or do I have a subtle build-up? Do I hit with the actual chorus and then go off into a musical barrage of "look what I can do" or do I do a long verse and then into a musical bridge or something and back into a single verse and let them wait for the chorus?

You have to feel your moods and then experiment with what chords will resolve at get you to the next part to where they sound like they belong in the same song. Unfortuantely there is no right way to go about this other than experimentation or the input from someone else to possibly inspire you as to where to go next. The more you do this, the easier it becomes. I like to follow where the melody and lyrics are going this way the song pretty much writes itself and dictates what should come next. But even there, sometimes keeping rules out of the equation and following your heart is the best way. It's always different though.

Another thing I do which is a really cool method is to sit at your DAW or whatever you record on, and log ideas. Just record all the stuff you can play and then save those ideas and put them in a folder. You'll be surprised at how this folder will grow over time and how you can mix and match new ideas that come to you with ideas you already have. Sometimes, the new ideas flow right into the old ones....other times while attempting to glue these togther, you forget all about the new idea because the old ones have sparked something new and fresh.

I wish there was a set answer to help you out here as I know how frustrating this part of being a songwriter can be. Hopefully some of what I've offered here may at least make you think differently or even inspire you to try something you may not have tried yet. I wish you the best of luck.

[TonyB]

Originally Posted by Eeeff

Not exactly what I was driving at, but thanks. After I've written a melody, I write another one that I could see being in the same song, and it works, but connecting them is a challenge. I've used music theory too much (because I studied theory in university for a couple years) and I'm trying to do this with ignorance to authentic cadences and modulations and everything of the sort and trust my ears, not formal text.

The Beatles wrote some famous songs this way.

Check out Across the Universe

[illybang]

Danny Danzi has some great tips. I'm no expert on composing music by any means, but when I write, I follow a lot of the things he has mentioned. One of the biggest things I believe any songwriter should do no matter what is to record riffs! When you're jamming out on guitar for an hour or whatever every day, just record it! Then, you can go back and snip out all the riffs you thought were cool and plop them into a folder. Seriously, you'll be amazed how you can mix and match things within just a few jam sessions.

The "overall" blueprint thing seems to help out as well, but I feel that this step is best utilized when you already have something to work with, so pulling out some riffs and then blueprinting them, THEN filling in the gaps/adding the glue (transitions, variations of riffs, etc) is most logical/effective in my opinion.

To try and help figure out the "next part", i actually like to sing a riff melody while jamming. Maybe that's just me, but basically what I mean is, i'll try to hear it in my head first. Play the riff you've already got set first, then instead of trying to just randomly find where to take the song next, see if you can sing a smooth transition. Record that if you have to, then figure something out on guitar. This actually sometimes allows you to let your true musical ideas come out instead of being limited by guitar skill / habits.

Anyways, good luck, and KEEP writing. That's the only way to improve.

[awaken1]

Great question Eeeff
The missing link! Who hasn't pulled their hair out looking for that?
There's some real great advice everyone's posted here, and it's true, there are no rules or formula to get from one section to another.

Going by feel and emotion is just as important as going by theory, if not more so.
Whether it be the vocals, guitar, drums, kazoo, whatever, have the melody that your playing go somewhere..maybe the vox are taking it to the next place, maybe the drums are, who knows, the key is having the listener be given a sense that they are being led..
I've listened to and studied everything from Beethoven to Cannibal Corpse in search of techniques of transitions..Threes no set way or rule of going about it..And like the painter Bob Ross said, a lot of times it arrives as a "happy accident' as he calls it..

One thing that has helped me out in this area is the use of subtle syncopation in certain areas that help create an alternate flow to the melody. You listening to Tool, you're probably already doing that though..

Also when your playing a melody it could help to change up the last measure a little bit to give a sense that something new is coming next..

One problem I had with a guitarist one time( this guy was IS a phenomenal player) was he tended to make things to busy most of the time and wanted to play more for himself rather then for the song..Didn't understand the concept of layering parts (drums, bass vox, etc)so they form a cohesive unit when all played together and compliment each other..

A lot of times also, a counter melody or phrasing over the main one will assist in getting from one part to the next..doesn't have to be much, just enough to say, heres where we're going now..

Again, there's no rules, just record everything you do and eventually it will get easier to piece it all together..

They guy who writes for Goo Goo Dolls had brain freeze for two years with labels breathing down his neck..Your not alone, and I'm having a bout of writers block myself..Might redo a cover just to start and finish something..

Good luck man. It'll happen, just takes a little time and patients.

T