Tips on arrangement, drums, etc.?

[egervari]

Hi,

I'm a guitar player, and so when I write a song, my focus is entirely on the guitar part.

Now that I'm recording and arranging songs, I find that my narrow vision gets me into trouble into creating songs that don't transition well. I think my rhythms are done really well, and so on, but if you listen to my songs, it basically sounds like the middle of the song the entire way through.

Any tips to knowing how to move a song? Where the decisions typically come from? Having a goal in mind? Feeling? Intuition? Copying the feel of other arrangements in the same genre?

Also, the drums are a really, really big part of most songs. The decisions on how to build them, their fills, when to stop them are very important I think. What is the best way to sort of learn this drum theory? Again, is this just intuition over time? Or can be created somewhat systematically?

Also, would it a better idea to start with the movement of the drums and build up a groove that way... then create the guitar parts around that?

I also have trouble creating bridges in songs. I don't really know where to take the song. The bridges almost always go up in level, or down in level... change instruments drastically, etc. Usually the key changes, or the progression is different. Somehow, in a good song, it all fits. What are your suggestions to creating good bridges?

Lots of questions, I know! I appreciate your comments and thoughts!

[Vulconizer]

Practice and experimentation to find what works best for you and your songs would be my answer.

Listening to and dissecting other songs can help as well, as long as you keep true to your own vision in the end.

I sometimes think I should have spent more time really checking out what other folks were doing instead of being bull-headed and wanting to go my own way. I am being true to my own vision for sure, but maybe I might have achieved it faster by paying attention to what others were doing earlier on.

[egervari]

Originally Posted by Vulconizer

Practice and experimentation to find what works best for you and your songs would be my answer.

Listening to and dissecting other songs can help as well, as long as you keep true to your own vision in the end.

I sometimes think I should have spent more time really checking out what other folks were doing instead of being bull-headed and wanting to go my own way. I am being true to my own vision for sure, but maybe I might have achieved it faster by paying attention to what others were doing earlier on.

I took your advice to dissect songs. I went to Tim Hortons and listened to like 30 songs. I diagrammed them out - one per page. Almost every goes like this... lol:

1. Intro
2. Verse
3. Pre-Chorus (sometimes it's 8-16 bars, sometimes it's 4 bars because the verse was only 12)
4. Chorus
5. Repeat 2-4 (But with more build up... like added guitar fills on Right, more synths to fill in space, more reverb on drums, etc.)
6. Bridge
7. Chorus x2 (usually the second repetition has leads, solos, background vocals, etc.)
8. Outro (Either chorus fades out, it all stops and rings out, or sometimes it goes back to a verse, but without most of the instruments).

LOL. That structure seems to be mimic'd over and over and over by 95% of the songs I listened to.

One song I'm having trouble with re-doing is "Mars":
SoundClick artist: Ken Egervari - I'm a solo acoustic guitar player. My music is my own - I don't really have a specified style, altho

This is not a terribly good mix of it (I have a better one with all new recordings and better mixed, etc.). I honestly don't really know how to build this though.

The rhythm is actually more simple than any of the songs I listened to. There is no chorus or verse... it's basically the same thing, over and over. The 'bridgey' part is just the main riff, but with major chords rather than the looser picked chords earlier. Any suggestions?

[tacman7]

You want to really get into analyzing songs, get this:

Amazon.com: TuneSmith: Inside the Art of Songwriting: Jimmy Webb: Books

[deadraven]

To be honest it depends on the person. I've found I've always been able to build tracks quite well. Playing around with the drums took a long time to master, but once you do master it, I feel the drums are key to the songwriting. Well for metal orientated music anyway. But this is my opinion, everyone works differently lol
I never ever vision my song as verse-chorus-verse-chorus-break-end etc at the start.
Once I've built the first few sections of the song, I will then start to call certain sections as the 'verse' 'chorus etc.

Once I have the first part of my song laid out, I will just envision what I want on the next section and so forth.
Keep it simple. Write your first four bars, sit back, listen, then imagine what you would like to hear on the next four bars, and so on.
On a chorus, do you want something catchy? Maybe write a rhythm guitar, then lay down a nice chorus guitar riff over the top of the rhythm.

[Vulconizer]

Been out of commission for a few days, but listening to the sample you have up, why not try differing things percussion-wise and vocal-wise to really make a substantial separation between the parts? Sometimes, just adding a tambourine or switching to a ride cymbal or adding in a shaker can make a chorus have a "step up" over the verse. Adding an extra vocal harmony can do really cool things.

Those sorts of things are some of the fun parts of songwriting for me. Toying around with the arrangement and instrumentation can be fun as hell in itself and I'll sometimes spend hours and hours just seeing what makes me smile and nod my head.

The bonus for you is you have some really good playing and sounds to work with from the start. Keep it up.

[michaelt523]

What I do that works for me is to listen to the song in my head over and over exactly how i want to hear it, and then write it accordingly.

[crooked09]

I think a big thing is having parts of the song that don't have every instrument in it. Maybe have an intro with just a guitar or just a bass, and then kind of build up into the verse, and then add a little bit more for the chorus. And then maybe back off again at the bridge and build back up again. Drums also have a lot to do with making distinct parts, try changing the cymbal you use for different parts, like high hat vs ride.

[bloozarumba]

I listened to some of your tunes and quite enjoyed it. But to answer your questions ....

Your question boils down to dynamics. It was not taught to me as a student of drums - I learned rudiments, counting, a few time signatures, beats, fills but not dynamics - that just comes with listening and practice.

Listen to drummers on your favorite songs and listen to how they approach each part. I am a fan of Stewart Copeland, Mitch Mitchell, Dave Lombardo, John Bonham, Kenny Aronoff, and Keith Moon.

example:
Kenny Aronoff, best known for his work with John Mellencamp, really knows how to make a straight ahead 4/4 rock song purr - listen to what he does in the bridge section of "Jack and Diane"

Moving a song
The most elementary thing a rock drummer learns is that the hihat is for verses and the ride is for choruses and guitar solos. Of course there is no rule but if you listen to pop and rock music you'll hear it a lot. Yawn! But once you know the rules you can break them - Keith Moon of the Who, for example ... I don't think playing 8th on the hihat was of any interest to him.

Songs also breath when their are drum rests.

Ghost notes - jazz drummers do these alot

Drummers learn the mechanics of fills but not necessarily where when to put them in much less which fill to do : the best advice I have heard (and I think it was actually applied to creative writing) is the more you learn about the mechanics- that stuff you can learn in a book or video - the better off you'll be to interpret a song - so I guess that means learn to play drums.

Accents - listen to anything by Stewart Copeland - he has a signature style of playing which was deeply influenced by Middle Eastern music (Copeland spent childhood in Lebanon)

I hope that helps - I think you generally already have a handle on what needs to be done having listened to "Mars" a few times as I write this. Do some more accents on the hihats. Switch to a ride pattern after the first drum fill; find a china cymbal sound and accent with it; part towards the end where you have quarters on the bass maybe make that more interesting with a hihat pattern and alot of accents (splash, snare/crash).

I do like the song though - guitars sound great!

[bloozarumba]

- I thought about your question more today and found these Jared Falk videos.

» FREE DRUM LESSONS - #1 Source For Video Drum Lessons Online

Basically, drums are there not just to keep time but to be musical and expressive - this does not mean overplaying but "playing to the song" and making the song "move." The way drummers can express movement or inspire an emotion is by playing each stroke or each bar as if it had a significant meaning unto itself while also contributing to the theme of the song and of course staying in time and not distracting the listener from the vocal melody.

drum theory and dynamics

- the mechanics of what drummers do in fills, for example, can be learned. When to do them, how to do them and which one to do is where the art comes in. Most professional drummers -and musicians - probably just feel it - they intuit it - the same way a lead guitarist may change his recorded guitar solo every time s/he plays it live - the same way a vocalist will sing a lyric slightly differently in concert than the way it was recorded.


composing

- If you're a guitarist I say start with guitar - its the most natural and organic way for you to compose. When you approach the percussion I don't recommend thinking of them just as a time keeper - think of them as a musical set instruments just like a guitar, bass, piano or voice. If I asked you to play a song, for example, with a hint of sadness you as a guitarist would instinctively know how to play your strings with that emotion - if I said to play the same song with a cheerful, happy feel you'd also know how to do it. A drum set is no different though much more limited (but check out a Neil Peart drum solo or Terry Bozzio).


Another band to check out is the Dave Matthews band - check out how Carter Beauford plays his drums.