copyright issues in UK?

[jwks]

Hi all,

I am very new to this site, and indeed, I don't know much on music.

I am a dancer, and I love the music played by the pianist in one of my classes. He is, to a certain extent, disabled. He is also getting aged.

I am running a project (a very initial stage) for charity purpose. To record the class music that he normally plays in the class, and the money from selling will be donated to an organisation chosen by the pianist.

Dancing is part of my life, and the music that goes with the dances make everything complete. I am running this project, as I want to remember how lovely the music that this pianist plays for future.

However, I am concerned about the copyrights issues. Most of the music that he plays in classes are: folks, or music composed by Tchaikovsky, etc.

I am just wondering if any of you can advise me on any copyright issues that I may have to consider when running this project.

Any help will be very appreciated.

Thanks.

JWKS

[Danny Danzi]

Hi jwks,

You'll need to look up the publisher for all the pieces he plays and apply for a license if you will be selling this CD. Most of the licenses from artists and publishers are through the Harry Fox agency in New York. Selling a CD of cover material is risky business if you're not careful. To be honest, I'd probably not even go down this road. But, if you sincerely feel the need, you can contact the publishers by searching the songs on the net that your friend plays. There will be publishing info for you to follow and you'll probably end up at ASCAP, BMI or SEASAC's website looking up the publisher information. From there, you can usually contact someone and find out what their terms would be as far as song usage and licensing. The publisher may even allow you full permission due to selling the CD for charity, but I can't promise you. Most CD's with cover material don't see much money because the original artists get all the money.

For example, if a major band releases a song done by someone else, they don't make a dime. The trade-off is the exposure doing this song will get them. So search this stuff out, contact the right people and then you'll be able to make up your mind whether this is something you feel is worth pursuing or not. Best of luck.

[Innovine]

I thought that most classical works, especially if the composer is long dead, were actually public domain works, and that it is the _recording_ of a particular performance of work that is copyright. if this is right, then anyone is free to perform it, and you would be allowed to record the performance, if the performer agrees, and you would hold the copyright to that recording. But maybe these laws are different in other countries.. the US has an embarrassingly messed up system.

Plus, I would really doubt that the RIAA would stoop so low as to legally harass a charity group dancing to the music of a disabled, aging pianist, the negative publicity there wouldn't be worth it.

[Danny Danzi]

Originally Posted by Innovine

I thought that most classical works, especially if the composer is long dead, were actually public domain works, and that it is the _recording_ of a particular performance of work that is copyright. if this is right, then anyone is free to perform it, and you would be allowed to record the performance, if the performer agrees, and you would hold the copyright to that recording. But maybe these laws are different in other countries.. the US has an embarrassingly messed up system.

Plus, I would really doubt that the RIAA would stoop so low as to legally harass a charity group dancing to the music of a disabled, aging pianist, the negative publicity there wouldn't be worth it.

That very well could be and I'm not disagreeing with you...however, you'd be surprised at how people come out of the woodwork when you try to sell something like this when money is involved...even for charity. It wouldn't hurt to contact the necessary parties just to play it safe for peace of mind.

[shackman]

I'd suggest you visit PRSformusic - it's the main UK licesning authority (much like Harry Fox that Danny mentioned is for the USA.

I suspect you are right about public domain. It is certain that PRS will be able to advise.

I'm a writer member so I can't say how they take payments for licenses, but I know they have a different rate for things like size of audience, arena etc etc.

Check 'em out.

John

[Danny Danzi]

Originally Posted by shackman

I'd suggest you visit PRSformusic - it's the main UK licesning authority (much like Harry Fox that Danny mentioned is for the USA.

I suspect you are right about public domain. It is certain that PRS will be able to advise.

I'm a writer member so I can't say how they take payments for licenses, but I know they have a different rate for things like size of audience, arena etc etc.

Check 'em out.

John

John, thanks so much for that information. I've been asked a few times about how people go about stuff in the UK for licensing and I never have an answer for them. Since we're on this subject, would you happen to know the proper channels for UK copywriting? This is another question I get asked often that I have no idea about. I know how we do it here in the USA, but I've never heard of any "legit" agency in the UK that does this.

Thanks in advance for your helpful information.

[shackman]

Hi Danny:

Yup, I do.

For products/recordings (CDs etc) and digital materials (downloads), you need to join PPL.

We have our label registered with them and all our recordings are registered there. If anyone broadcasts, plays them, they need a license and we get our share EVENTUALLY. It covers TV licenses, Internet media etc etc.

For writing/publishing, we have all our songs registered at PRSforMusic. Should anyone want to record one of our songs, they get their license there - and we are automatically licensed worldwide ( and - specifically - through ASCAP or BMI in the USA ) through our PRS licenses.

(THat's a point. BMI/ASCAP MUST have reciprocal agreements with PRS - I should have thought).

The water is, in my view, muddied by the UK system. I'm unclear as to why, but BOTH orgainisations (PRS and PPL) issue licenses for performances, but neither covers all eventualities, so you need both to be covered.

Finally (though this one is a nicety for me (because my music will never do it), you CANNOT be eligible for official UK charts (of any genre) unless you have a PPL registration.

They run the numbers to Catco which is the company which runs the official UK charts.

Phew. I think that's it. It took me about three months to work it all out and get registered, but now, getting songs covered is a doddle with everything done online and cheaply.

That's a point. PPL membership is free. PRS charge a small fee for starters and larger as you climb the tree.

Hope that helps.

John

And (I know you know this Danny, but for those who might find it all very confusing) PRS and PPL DO NOT COPYRIGHT your music. You have to use whatever method you have to do that, be it self addressed registered letters or registration with the Government. I would add that having regsitered a song with these guys, anyone accusing you of breaching copyright would have to get past the date you notified these companies, but that's another argument discussed elsewhere on this forum and often.

[Danny Danzi]

That definitely helps!! Thank you so much. That self addressed thing most times doesn't hold up in court though John. I have a thread on here somewhere where I cover some of that stuff. Lawyers are unbelievable in how they can show how someone can totally set up a "mail the package to yourself" type deal. If I find the thread I took part in, I'll share the link with you so you an check it out. Thanks for the info, much appreciated! I'll make sure if I use it, I'll credit "This information provided by Shackman LLC ©2009" LOL!