composing/arrangement tips

[Innovine]

I am trying to write some thrash metal songs with a friend, but we can't figure out how to do it I mostly play drums, and he plays guitar, but we switch around now and then. We also have no problem in jamming together, usually some heavy beats and riffage come out of it. But this is where the problems begin, because we've no idea how to take this a step further.

Jamming can get very loopy and repetitive, and we want to get a better structure with more interesting changes than those that emerge when jamming. Like, coordinated phrases and sudden changes (an extra bar or something here and there). Although we discuss it a bit we really could do with some help on how to make these things a bit more permanent, so we can end up with a song structure that we can repeat, and rehearse so it's tight.

We do a cover of Metallica's Master of Puppets, and it's not so bad, so we know we have at least some technical chops. But we have zero arrangement/compositional skills!

Any tips would be great!!

[illybang]

The first thing that I could suggest is somehow get your jams recorded. Every time you guys have a jam session, have a recorder with you, even if it's just a crappy cassette tape. This way, you can go back to listen to any riffs or ideas that may remember as being "cool".

Then, you may want to start trying to put some of these cool riffs together. See which ones work with each other. You should be able to put something together after a few jams (maybe even after 1!).

After you do get a rough structure of some sort, put all of THAT down on a cassette/computer and listen to it. This should give you a better idea of what it sounds like as a listener and not a player, and it should also help you decide on what else you would like to add or not.

Putting ideas down and listening back to them has been one of the most overlooked things i've noticed. Maybe that's just bands I know or my band as well as we will have forgotten to record a jam very often. But, the ones we do get down, we always find something we can use, and listening back definitely gives you a clearer idea of how good something sounds / different perspective.

Hope some of this helps!

Originally Posted by Innovine

I am trying to write some thrash metal songs with a friend, but we can't figure out how to do it I mostly play drums, and he plays guitar, but we switch around now and then. We also have no problem in jamming together, usually some heavy beats and riffage come out of it. But this is where the problems begin, because we've no idea how to take this a step further.

Jamming can get very loopy and repetitive, and we want to get a better structure with more interesting changes than those that emerge when jamming. Like, coordinated phrases and sudden changes (an extra bar or something here and there). Although we discuss it a bit we really could do with some help on how to make these things a bit more permanent, so we can end up with a song structure that we can repeat, and rehearse so it's tight.

We do a cover of Metallica's Master of Puppets, and it's not so bad, so we know we have at least some technical chops. But we have zero arrangement/compositional skills!

Any tips would be great!!

[Garethoyle]

I found that when I first started composing, I had the same problem of not knowing how to put riffs together to make them sound good. I always thought that each riff needed its own transitional riff to make it fit into the next one. But after a little bit of critically analysing some of the bands I listen to I realised that none of them actually did it that much.

So basically what I'm saying is don't hesitate in simply putting riffs or chord progressions together just because you think it might not work perfectly, chances are once you go back and listen to it, it will sound a lot better than you thought it would.

Take Master of Puppets as an example. Have a listen through it and think about how some of the riffs relate to each other and how they are linked together.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but this idea certainly helped me when I first started entire songs together.

[Innovine]

Well, we recorded two jam sessions now, and found some good material in there. It's really an eyeopener to sit back and just listen; some things I thought were sucky are actually quite ok, and other parts I thought were great are sloppy as hell
There are a couple of parts in there that I like, hopefully we can try and repeat them next time.

[illybang]

Sweet! I'm glad to hear that you have experienced the power of recording your jams. It is most DEFINITELY an eye-opener on many levels.

It's always good to listen back to recordings soon after the jam (maybe the next day at latest) so that as you are listening, you can note which sections are ones you would like to work on, and you can then try to remember how to play them before you completely forget how you did it. This of course is easier when it's on a digital format. If it is a digital recording, it's easy enough to just start cutting out sections that you think are cool (granted that you have some sort of audio editing program) and you can just keep a folder of a bunch of riffs. You can even go above and beyond that and tab out the parts and put that in the folder with the audio clip as well, but that definitely takes some time and dedication, and most of the time, is unnecessary.

I find that as long as I can go through the recording soon after the it has been made, I can remember how I played most of the riffs I like.

Here's hoping that you write some kick ass music!

Originally Posted by Innovine

Well, we recorded two jam sessions now, and found some good material in there. It's really an eyeopener to sit back and just listen; some things I thought were sucky are actually quite ok, and other parts I thought were great are sloppy as hell
There are a couple of parts in there that I like, hopefully we can try and repeat them next time.

[garageband]

Great to see the value and limitations of jamming. Jamming is like lifting weights. Necessary, but your girlfriend doesn't really want to come over to your house to watch you do sets. Likewise, nobody really wants to hear you just jam. (Soapbox moment over. Had a bad experience recently.)

The cassette thing is good. It'd be even better if you could write it out so you can see the organization of it. Even if you can write out the desired form, something like: A-B-A-C-A-B, for instance. It sounds like the formal considerations are what have you all balled up. Somebody mentioned, "See how others do it". Yes, do that. Take something simple like a Motown song and write out the form together as you listen to it. This is group listening/songwriting homework. Sit with lyric sheets and talk about how these things are put together. Why good ones are good, why sucky ones suck. All the great songwriting teams have done this. Your turn.

[awaken1]

Great advice above. When you critically analyze other music for song structure you kind of force your self to be more critical of your own..Mapping things out can definately be a usefull tool when composing and preproduction.

[efe]

I`ll add my 2 cents for what its worth.....
I write "prog metal" or post metal music which tends to be a bit techinical with all kinds of riffage etc.

When I am looking for ideas I actually have a digital voice recorder I use when Im driving around at work. Paid 30-40 for it. I have ideas come to me all the time, not just in the jam room, so I hum the ideas into the voice recorder as they come to me just to save them until I get home later. Alot of times 1 idea will turn into 5 ideas. Thats how it works for me anyway. Currently I have 67 or so ideas on my recorder....yikes.
A song can take me a month or more to complete though. Metal is complicated and takes alot of thought to be original and good as its been done to death.

[Innovine]

well, we have now recorded several jams, listened, studied, found the good bits and tried to reply them. We generally just end up looping it, or wandering off. We've also recorded jams to a click, cut it all into pieces, and tried rearranging them into a song. That took incredible amounts of time and the end result was worse than the jams. I'm wondering what we need to glue it together into songs, cos it's just not happening. Perhaps a singer and some lyrics? Maybe that would give definition (a title, some structure). I dunno. Too bad neither of us can sing

[efe]

Id suggest you post it up somewhere to let other ears have a listen. Doesnt mean you have to take the advice others offer you regarding song structure, but it might help point you in the right direction.