Have Bass Sounds Not Changed Much?

[brandondrury]

In another thread, we were discussing bass sounds and what we would define as a "modern" bass sound. Somebody mentioned that he considered Seal and Phil Collins bass sounds from the late 80s and early 90s to have modern bass sounds.

This is just one person's opinion and one person's definition of "modern", but it got me thinking. Has the sound of the bass changed much over the years? I'd say it really hasn't.

I'm not a bass player and from my guitar nature, I never really payed attention to the bass until I got into recording. But there are only a handful of bass sounds that really come to mind.

The Beatles Bass Sound

The Rock bass sound which is basically a Fender bass and an Ampeg SVT which you can hear on just about every rock record ever made.

Then there is the other sound that you can hear well on Mr. Mister's Broken Wings, Sledgehammer by Peter Gabriel, and a ton of pop type of records.

Again, I'm 100% NOT an authority on bass sounds. In fact, it's odd that I pay that much attention at all. So are there more bass genres / tones than this? Surely I'm missing some.

If there really aren't that many bass sounds out there, why is this? Why are there a million guitar sounds (maybe I just hear lots of unique guitar sounds because I'm a guitar player!).

What are your thoughts?
Brandon

[flhctroll]

Seems to me there is alot more gain being used nowadays. I find myself peaking the input alot on my Ampeg svt tube amp. Get those tubes workin Alot moreso than a few years back when we first got the amp. Used to just barely peak the input. Now its a constant.

[Smidgelton]

I agree with the above. That might be one of the biggest changes in the sound of bass compared to 25 or 30 years ago. I mean, you listen to Van Morrison "Brown Eyed Girl" or Joe Cocker "With a Little Help From my Friends" and then you listen to "Plush" by Stone Temple Pilots or "Right Now" by Van Halen and you will notice way more gain and treble in "modern bass sound". I don't know if that is a good example or not.

The Jazz and Precision bass sounds are definitely huge in music, you're right. The Rickenbacker (Beatles Bass) sound which isn't really widely used nowdays but definitely has a signature tone. Gibson basses became popular for a while back then but I don't think they really had a defining sound to them. These days there is the deep growling Warwick sound which is used in everything from R&B to funk to metal. There is the ErnieBall Musicman sound which is widely used in punk and metal, but also found in rock. There are the Modulus (Red Hot Chili Peppers) and Zon (Tool) sounds. Carl Thomson basses (Primus). Yamaha has somewhat of a signature sound (late 80/early 90s Van Halen, Dream Theatre, I think Phil Collins). I'm sure there are others. I mean there is the fretless bass sound like in Cyndi Lauper's "Time After Time", Pink Floyd's "Hey You", Mars Volta's "The Widow", or one of my favorites "Until it Sleeps" by Metallica. That's a very unique sound.

Maybe, compared to guitars, there are not as many defined sounds because a lot of these basses I mentioned cover so many styles of music. I mean you could be right at home playing a Fender Jazz or Precision in any type of music. It sounds damn good no matter what. I don't pretend to know a lot about guitars, but I don't think I could imagine a Jackson guitar being your first choice for playing country music. Nor would I imagine a Gretsch guitar being your first pick to play heavy metal. Maybe in the guitar world you have to pick your axe differently if you plan on playing a certain type of music. But in the bass world, it's mostly all gravy!

-Nick

[brandondrury]

Wow! A bass player with bass tone knowledge!! Strange!

Thanks for the lesson, Smidgelton. I had a feeling my theory on Fender bass tones / Non-Fender bass sounds was a little bit oversimplified. I guess the difference tend to fairly subtle compared to the differences in guitar tones between Cannibal Corpse and Conway Twitty.

I don't think I could imagine a Jackson guitar being your first choice for playing country music.

Well, it depends on the Jackson. Most Jacksons (I'm referring to the "superstrats" here) are just bolt on guitars, floyd rose tremolo, and a humbucker in the bridge. The humbucker makes a very obvious tonal difference from the typical single coil, the bolt on is the same as a strat and has a mid scooping quality to it, and floyd rose also makes a drastic tonal change that's hard to describe with words.
However, this isn't much different than a Strat with a Wilkinson tremolo, except for the humbucker. Really, your standard Jackson superstrat is nothing more than a hybrid between a Les Paul and a strat (leaning more in the Strat direction) with a neon green paint job or whatever.
I think that you can totally make just about any guitar work for almost any style of music (much like the Fender basses) if you know what you are doing.
The modern high gain guitar sound completely obliterates what came out of the guitar to begin with so the difference between a Tele and a Jackson Kelly with an EMG 81 is not quite as drastic as you may think.

Brandon

[evilLordJuju]

Gibson basses became popular for a while back then but I don't think they really had a defining sound to them

well I disagree there - but then I would.

There have been so many different Gibson basses, different woods, different constructions - with different sounds. In the last 50 years since electric basses have been made, the likes of Fender, Rickenbacker etc have stuck to their basic products, whilst Gibson has continually tried new ideas

The archetypal Gibson solid body sound is the mahogany body with set mahogany neck. Thats most EB0, EB1, EB3 , EB4 - and Les Paul basses, combined with the mighty Gibson EB humbucker, right up by the neck. A lovely deep sound, very distinctive - as used by the likes of Cream, Free, Slade, Jethro Tull etc. Many of those basses are short scale scale so the strings have lower tension, which makes you play a little differently anyway

check out jack bruce here exemplifying th EB3 sound
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2VQcZkL97bU

But Gibson also used their humbuckers in the hollowbody EB2 - same construction as the 335 guitars - maple top and back, with maple centreblock, mahogany set neck - this is the thumping bass of the early mid sixties beat groups

This contrasts to Fenders bolt-on neck alder/maple guitars - and Rickenbackers through neck maple 4000 series.

But Gibson have made just as many instruments different from the set neck mahogany EBs

In 1963 there was the Rickenbacker-style through neck of the Thunderbird, all mahogany, unlike the all maple Ric, but long scale and with similar sustain - a great rock bass, very widely used and in production for 32 of the last 46 years

In the mid-seventies there were the fender-like long scale Grabber and G-3 (bolt on necks, alder/maple), other all-maple instruments, the Ripper, RD standard and active RD artist

These were not like the old Gibsons, and were brighter sounding, as was the fashion of the day

The early-mid eighties saw more Fenderesque basses, the late eighties and beyond saw Gibson concentrating on classic designs - Thunderbird, Les Paul and now the new SG reissue

You can listen to some Gibsons in use on various pages of my site, and there are also a few songs posted by users here

In general I agree bass sounds have got brighter over the last 50 years - the first basses were an approximation of the upright basses - with new construction materials, roundwound strings and active electronics etc, the bass has got potentially brighter - playing styles change and a lot people like a nice bright bass, for a bit of slapping, or just to be heard above the guitarists wall of effects

I don't - check out my 1961 EB0 here
http://www.wormfat.com/sounds/wormfat-liquidWormFat.mp3

[brandondrury]

Interestingly, most basses that I've had to deal with (regardless of music styles) have used a tone quite similar to your 1961 EB0 (although probably not as high of quality). While that bass sound seams to work quite well for the style of music in Liquid Worm Fat, that style of bass is very tough to work with in rock setting that I'm more used to dealing with.

Actually, that bass sound reminds me a lot of some of the early 90s Dr. Dre productions.

In general I agree bass sounds have got brighter over the last 50 years

I think this is correct on the major label level. However, the local level is generally quite clueless. About every bass player I meet says they want a huge deep sound even if they want their record to sound like Guns N Roses or whatever.

I really liked the sound of the 1961 EB0, but I can't think of a single song that I've done in the past 2 years that this particular tone would work with. Do you ever have problems with that bass sound fighting the kick drum? In the mp3 sample you played the drums were not exactly 'hard hitting'. What bass would use if the drums needed more impact / volume?

Brandon

[evilLordJuju]

well that 61 EB0 is particularly muddy sounding, so I probably wouldn't use that - however there are other things i'd change before changing the bass

I always use flatwound strings- i'd switch to rounds

I usually play finger style - i'd switch to a pick

I usually play up at the neck - i'd start playing down by the bridge


Many rock players position their hand on the bridge, and go mad with a hard pick
if you do that ANY bass will cut through more - particularly if using a pickup situated near the bridge - which is a lot brighter sounding

Of course most basses can be used as a great rock bass - The EB0 I played above has no bridge pickup and would not be such a good choice, but an EB3, thunderbird etc would all cut the mustard - and have been used widely by rock bands in the past.

My wormfat clip was all about having a mellow dubby bass sound - which I guess I prefer - but the notes do loose definition in some settings. On my tiny laptop speakers tha bassline disappears completely.

The difference between finger-style at the neck, and pick-style at the bridge is huge - I routinely swap how I play in any one set, because I usually want different sounds for different songs.

So the bass I would choose for hard-hitting rock? - there are so many, but not a hollowbody, not a one-pickup shortscale EB with flatwounds - i'd save these for intimate jazz gigs - but almost anything else, whether Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, or other modern bass - all would do the job adequately

In reality i'd alternate between several basses - Thunderbird, Ripper, my Ric 4003, my RD artist - whichever felt right on the day....

[brandondrury]

Okay, I get it.

I remember as a young metalhead back in the day spending hours on hours working on perfecting the tone of my palm muting to get the heavy ja ja ja sound.

Many times I was complimented for my particular tone in not only my palm mutes, but my tone in general. I've had great gear since I've been able to afford it, but the difference was in the fact that I had spent years working on my tone from not only using the gear, but also using the hands.

It's clear that you have done the same.

I thought there were serious issues with ability to record bass back in the day until I ran into a few bass players that had also put the time into actually caring about their tone.

It's clear from you post, like everything else involving recording, it's up to the player to sound great.

Brandon