What is the most realistic sounding drum program?

[IonMan]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

If you are looking for real drums, I couldn't imagine how synthesis would in any way compare to that of a real drum using samples.

Actually Brandon, I misread what you said ... I overlooked the "using samples" at the end of the sentence (scared.)

I was messing around on a drum kit the other day .. playing along with Tom Petty's "Learning To Fly" CD. I noticed that the percussion throughtout is so damned simple, I am almost positive a MIDI driven sampled kit could emulate what was on that album.

If the music is simple .. there's not much to do and so I think samples could do that job as well or better than trying to record a real kit.

If you were to try and do something very technical .. that's when you would run into trouble (I think.)

[brandondrury]

Tom Petty's "Learning To Fly" CD. I noticed that the percussion throughtout is so damned simple

HA! I listened to this on Tuesday and said "Learning To Fly" is the simplest song in the world. I've always loved that song.

I am almost positive a MIDI driven sampled kit could emulate what was on that album.

Agreed, but you tremendously underestimate what people are doing with samples these days. Check out "High Energy Metal" here: Alien Connections - Home of ReValver Mk II and the PS 2005 Sound Editor

YouTube - My eDrum test video

If the music is simple .. there's not much to do

Incorrect. At least I don't agree. You may think that kick, snare, kick, snare 4/4 stuff is easy to program. I consider it the most challenging to make sound realistic because. The high tempo busy stuff goes by so quickly that you don't notice the lack of nuances.

That's something else I paid particular attention to on Learning To Fly. The drums very quite a bit in velocity. Getting the feel right for a song like Learning To Fly is very difficult. Even with a real drummer, there are few local guys I know who could come close to pulling this off in a robo serious major label situation. Of course, this applies to all instruments.

Brandon

[scribe]

I dont know if its just me but when I hear a song that I have had nothing to do with either emotionally or creatively I just buy it that thats the drum sound the producer wanted and its all good.

But when it is something I am involved with, I loose sleep, become anti- social and drink beer hoping that I will find the answer to my conundrum of 'but will the listening public (all 3 of them) notice that the floor tom is from a different kit, the verb on the snare is in a different room and the hi hat is actually a cut up sample of a trash can lid being thrown down an alley"

When I program drums, if I want it to sound real from a 'feel' perspective rather than a sound perspective I try to get my drummer buddy in on it and get his advice.

As far as the sound goes I try to make everything (all the instruments) sound like they were recorded in the same room as a starting point. From there, depending on the track I will start messing them up if i get the urge.

cheers

[IonMan]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

HA! I listened to this on Tuesday and said "Learning To Fly" is the simplest song in the world. I've always loved that song.

... You may think that kick, snare, kick, snare 4/4 stuff is easy to program. I consider it the most challenging to make sound realistic because. The high tempo busy stuff goes by so quickly that you don't notice the lack of nuances.

I love Tom Petty's ability to make simplicity sound so good.

I am a newby at DAW's, but I have been programming in MIDI for many years and we took pride and put many hours into making our backing sequences sound as realistic as possible - particularly the percussion. My point in making that statement is that I am in full agreement with you. It DOES take an effort to make simple songs sound "right" BECAUSE they are often dynamically complex as opposed to full of drum hits.

BUT (hehe) ..

In a "simple" song, there are only so many snare events and so many events and so on. It really isnt that hard to listen to each one individually and vary the velocity as required. At least with respect to the percussion track, for this kind of song, it really ISNT that hard to pick out many of the nuances - I didnt say it wasnt time consuming (I dont call time consuming hard .. hard - for me - is when I cant pick things out .. ie, the piece is way to fast and hidden to hear properly)

Remember I am talking about something simple here. And I have to add to this that I was playing along with Learning to fly on the drums and wasnt listening critically .. so there may be some clever doodles that I didnt notice. I will have to have a close listen now and come back to you with an update.

In essence i agree with you. But I think there are times where it is possible to capture nuances in songs ...

Another point to that .. if you cannot hear a nuance .. it may as well not be there ... hehe

Originally Posted by brandondrury

That's something else I paid particular attention to on Learning To Fly. The drums very quite a bit in velocity. Getting the feel right for a song like Learning To Fly is very difficult. Even with a real drummer, there are few local guys I know who could come close to pulling this off in a robo serious major label situation. Of course, this applies to all instruments.
Brandon

This is what I was getting at above when I said that there are only so many events to simulate. I would begin by getting the basic drum track down. Then I would listen to each bar and make sure that I had the correct sequence of events.
after that I would work on the rolls etc to make them sound real .. I often layer snares and vary the way they increase in velocity as the roll progresses. That had the added effect of varying the tone as one snare would be brighter and they would each interrelate differently for each hit event ...
Then I would listen to the dynamics of the track. If there was no discernable "nuance" I would just take artistic license. You have to remember though that at that time (MC500) I only had discrete values of velocity to choose from .. that limited us just a tad or ten.

And its important to note too here that I am only discussing the drums in all of this discussion.



p.s. Brandon I was decribing this website to an old mate - a guitarist I used to play in a couple of bands with - My final description included this comment (lol ) .. " ... it's a real **** and fuzzy website .. great to be a participant in."

That's really what I think by the way.
Have a great week Brandon .. and you other nice people

Ian

[IonMan]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Quote:
I am almost positive a MIDI driven sampled kit could emulate what was on that album.

Agreed, but you tremendously underestimate what people are doing with samples these days. Check out "High Energy Metal" here: Alien Connections - Home of ReValver Mk II and the PS 2005 Sound Editor

YouTube - My eDrum test video

No I don't Brandon .. I am just talking about learning to fly (due to its very simple percussion tracks .. and also I was only thinking about the drum track, not the other instruments. This is purely a discussion on the "Learning To Fly" percussion tracks.

But now I had better have a critical listen just to see if I can agree with my own self lol.

[brandondrury]

I dont call time consuming hard .. hard - for me - is when I cant pick things out .. ie, the piece is way to fast and hidden to hear properly

That was my point. If it's "hard" for you to hear the details because of the speed, it's also hard for the listener to pick them out.

Both complex music and simple music have their various traits that make them difficult. So many local musicians like to get into fairly intricate and complex music even though most of these people don't have the ability to even play the simple music. If these guys were to play an instrument with a real, big boy producer they would go home, drink a fifth of Southern Comfort, and consider quiting.

My point is not to discredit the talent required for complex music, but to make a person realize just how incredibly difficult it is to play simple music well. A great example is the drum track on Enter Sandman. Bob Rock said they cut up 23 good takes to make that one single drum track you hear on the tune. Even though the song is a simple one, getting the groove that damn good would be physically impossible for a single human to play, according to Bob Rock. Metallica didn't go through near this kind of mess on their earlier work even though their earlier work is infinitely more complex.

So I guess the door swings both ways. I find it easier to add more notes into a drum track I'm programming than I do to add feel.

p.s. Brandon I was decribing this website to an old mate - a guitarist I used to play in a couple of bands with - My final description included this comment (lol ) .. " ... it's a real **** and fuzzy website .. great to be a participant in."

Damn, I was hoping that you would describe it as "liquid hell" whatever that means.

Brandon

[IonMan]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

That was my point. If it's "hard" for you to hear the details because of the speed, it's also hard for the listener to pick them out.

Both complex music and simple music have their various traits that make them difficult. So many local musicians like to get into fairly intricate and complex music even though most of these people don't have the ability to even play the simple music. If these guys were to play an instrument with a real, big boy producer they would go home, drink a fifth of Southern Comfort, and consider quiting.

My point is not to discredit the talent required for complex music, but to make a person realize just how incredibly difficult it is to play simple music well. A great example is the drum track on Enter Sandman. Bob Rock said they cut up 23 good takes to make that one single drum track you hear on the tune. Even though the song is a simple one, getting the groove that damn good would be physically impossible for a single human to play, according to Bob Rock. Metallica didn't go through near this kind of mess on their earlier work even though their earlier work is infinitely more complex.

So I guess the door swings both ways. I find it easier to add more notes into a drum track I'm programming than I do to add feel.

In that case, I agree with you in every detail .. hehe.

p.s. mmmmmmmmmmm Southern Comfortttttttttttttt .. I drink in moderation but I love that stuff.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Damn, I was hoping that you would describe it as "liquid hell" whatever that means.
Brandon

Ahhhh, I see where the misunderstanding lay. American, British and Australian English are very similar (of course) .. however there are some great differences too. THe most interesting thing about the differences is that some words have entirely different meaning. Take "**** and fuzzy" as an example. If you were to translate Australian "**** and fuzzy" to American English, the nearest you could come would be something similar to the latin "liquidus infernus," which then translates to something like .. "liquid hell" .. whatever that means...



hope that helps

Ian