What is the most realistic sounding drum program?

[RobDanger]

I also enjoy using BFD. While I do agree that the sounds that come with and are released for BFD (with the exception of the Joe Barresi lib, which apparently come preprocessed and come with mixer settings that render the kits ready to go) are very raw and unprocessed and make for long sessions of compression and eq tweaking, you wont necessarily need 2gb until you upgrade to BFD2, where on my old system the vst with no samples loaded chews up half my cpu load and the large, detailed kits consume more ram and VM than I have available. On the other hand the new UI in BFD2 is a joy to work with and look at, and I look forward to updating my system (ie buy a new pc) so that I may put it to use.

[IonMan]

ok guys, all very interesting. So do these things compare with the sounds on teh Roland JV2080, anyone know. I will be happy to replace the JV with something better .. but dont want to spend cash unless I can impove realism.

And while Im here ... is midi still the way to go, or is there a better alternative (aside from loops????)

[thesilentdrummer]

From what I understand about the Roland JV2080 (released in 1999??), all of these programs would CRUSH that thing. They will sound, at least, as good, and should sound much more real. MIDI is still the way to go. I don't know if you know the modern convention, but the modern idea is to send your electric drums into a DAW, then running one of these as a VSTi. But don't rely on my word: the video on this page is f'ing increible!

Toontrack®

[RandyE]

if you're using pro tools, digi's STRIKE is the best i've ever worked with. realism for days. talkback mic, overheads, room mics? outta hand!

rather than me blow all the smoke, go to digidesign.com and check out the STRIKE plug-in. VERY cool!

no, i don't work for digi.

[eyefi]

Originally Posted by IonMan

ok guys, all very interesting. So do these things compare with the sounds on teh Roland JV2080, anyone know. I will be happy to replace the JV with something better .. but dont want to spend cash unless I can impove realism.

And while Im here ... is midi still the way to go, or is there a better alternative (aside from loops????)

have a listen to the demos, decide for yourself

[brandondrury]

So do these things compare with the sounds on teh Roland JV2080, anyone know

If you are looking for real drums, I couldn't imagine how synthesis would in any way compare to that of a real drum using samples.

With that said, synthesis has it's place, but more for hip hop, dance music, and certain pop songs.

And while Im here ... is midi still the way to go, or is there a better alternative (aside from loops????)

Yeah, I don't know any other way to trigger synths/samples.

Brandon

[stigg]

I was looking for a drum program that had a reasonably good brush kit for nice ballad sounds (swish snare) and the only one I've found is "Garritan Jazz and Big Band." Garritan Home Page . It's by far the best I've heard but it is a bit spendy through
the Garritan sight.
I found one about 1/2 price at e-bay's "Dr Music" eBay Store - Dr Music's Store: 1 - Guitar Books, 2 - Guitar DVD, OSP Pro Audio Gear. (you have to visit the sight often because it only pops up once in awhile)
Its great standalone or vst. (I use it with Finale)
Hope this helps!
s.

[IonMan]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

If you are looking for real drums, I couldn't imagine how synthesis would in any way compare to that of a real drum using samples.

With that said, synthesis has it's place, but more for hip hop, dance music, and certain pop songs.


Yeah, I don't know any other way to trigger synths/samples.

Brandon

thanks everyone. I've been listening to demo's and you are right. Even easy drummer sounds more realistic than the JV. Having said that ... I have some songs using the Korg M1 where I can't imagine replacing the kick and snare.
I'd replace the cymbal sounds in a flash, however (no surprise there.)

It also must be said that there's a difference listening to drums naked as compared listening to them in the song .. same as guitar (or any) sounds.


Now Brandon, this isn't an argument .. just an observation ... you say real drums will always be better than samples ... when you record real drums onto a PC (or any digital device) you have .. a sampled drum kit ... which by your claim should make it worse than itself .. hehe.

Therefore, it MUST be possible to create drum samples the equal of anything anybody can record .. because they are after all - recordings .. yes?

I'll keep listening ...

I'm glad that midi is still in use (phew) I want to use what Ive already got .. and I have enough to learn for the moment.

ciao wonderful people and thanks again for your advice.

Ian

[brandondrury]

you say real drums will always be better than samples

I do? If I made this statement, I surely qualified it or it was said in context. I use samples all the time.

when you record real drums onto a PC (or any digital device) you have .. a sampled drum kit ... which by your claim should make it worse than itself .. hehe.

Not exactly. While you are right in saying that sampled drum is essentially just a recorded drum, there is more that goes into it. A sample is triggered from MIDI. Real drums captured with mics weren't triggered from anything other than a dude beating on some round things.

This puts us into a dramatically different ballpark where all sorts "realism" must be added to the performance. To miss this aspect of the sampling thing would miss the entire point of MIDI programming. ......but I know what you mean.

Therefore, it MUST be possible to create drum samples the equal of anything anybody can record .. because they are after all - recordings .. yes?

Definitely! This is why I'm not a big fan of sample replacement and layering on drums (which is very popular in rock and metal these days). Layering can cause all kinds of problems with feel, but in most cases solid tracking and mixing can get the same or better sounds.

The bigger issue here is:
a) The detail in the samples. The old days of using one sample for kick and one sample for snare are LONG gone. It's dramatically more complex. DFH Superior uses 40GB. When you add a couple drum hits for each velocity you end up with a bunch of samples. When you start factoring in bleed within individual samples (which DFH Superior does) you end up with a huge collection.

b) The room. This is the biggie for me. My room does not have the magic sound that the Hit Factory, the Plant, or other classic studios have. There is a reason why big boys pay so much to rent these rooms. They sound amazing.

c) The engineer. It takes a long damn time before an engineer can get great drum sounds. Many samples are processed from the beginning and sound great right out of the box. This can limit flexibility, but there is no substitute for a robo engineer doing the work. Check out the Steven Slate Drums . There is absolutely no way in hell I could acheive these sounds at home. I wouldn't nail it even if I had a zillion dollar studio.

So technically samples are just audio files and we record audio files all the time. However, there is a big difference between creating music and creating audio files. The samples can be a huge help.

Brandon

[IonMan]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I do? If I made this statement, I surely qualified it or it was said in context. I use samples all the time.
Brandon

Oh yes. I am not being argumentative, just lazy . I'm the consumate blurter, so I'm blurting rhetorically.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Not exactly. While you are right in saying that sampled drum is essentially just a recorded drum, there is more that goes into it. A sample is triggered from MIDI. Real drums captured with mics weren't triggered from anything other than a dude beating on some round things.

Yes I understand midi and sampling quite well, and particularly midi (ive programmed many hundreds of songs for live performance in a rock band.) If you are making the point that the dude does stuff in zillions of minute variations that cant be captured easily by a midi programmer .. I would agree. But I cant see a real difference between a drum strike by a dude, or a mid trigger as they both can happen at t=n.

Oh . b.t.w. I don't claim that algorithms that synthesize drum hits will be as good as real hits. They are approximations only and there are too many variables. I only mean real sampled drum sounds.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

This puts us into a dramatically different ballpark where all sorts "realism" must be added to the performance. To miss this aspect of the sampling thing would miss the entire point of MIDI programming. ......but I know what you mean.

right ... I agree with you completely. A lot of my time programming in midi was to try and capture some of these issues. Very time consuming.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

Definitely! This is why I'm not a big fan of sample replacement and layering on drums (which is very popular in rock and metal these days). Layering can cause all kinds of problems with feel, but in most cases solid tracking and mixing can get the same or better sounds.

I hear you. I haven't tried any of this, but it had occurred to me that is was an option.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

a) The detail in the samples. The old days of using one sample for kick and one sample for snare are LONG gone. It's dramatically more complex. DFH Superior uses 40GB. When you add a couple drum hits for each velocity you end up with a bunch of samples. When you start factoring in bleed within individual samples (which DFH Superior does) you end up with a huge collection.

A necessary overhead I can see.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

b) The room. This is the biggie for me. My room does not have the magic sound that the Hit Factory, the Plant, or other classic studios have. There is a reason why big boys pay so much to rent these rooms. They sound amazing.

c) The engineer. It takes a long damn time before an engineer can get great drum sounds. Many samples are processed from the beginning and sound great right out of the box. This can limit flexibility, but there is no substitute for a robo engineer doing the work. Check out the Steven Slate Drums . There is absolutely no way in hell I could acheive these sounds at home. I wouldn't nail it even if I had a zillion dollar studio.

Yes. I have been considering all this and I did definitely come to the realization that I would never ever get a real kit to sound anywhere near as good as these percussion software do .. like EZDrummer and so on. So the answer is quite obvious ... get a percussion suite and record music. I'm considering Superor 2.

I don't know what I'd do without this site Brandon. It is such a credit to you.

aw

Originally Posted by brandondrury

So technically samples are just audio files and we record audio files all the time. However, there is a big difference between creating music and creating audio files. The samples can be a huge help.
Brandon

I completely understand your viewpoint on this now and agree with you wholeheartedly. Damn .. I'll have to wait for something else to annoy you about .. I'll be watching and waiting ... like a crouching tiger ... crouching and errrr ... waiting ...

p.s. I'm actually beginning to like and trust DAW recording ...

Ian