want freedom of tempo but need grid for midi programming...

[mukkemacker]

[Not sure if this is the right forum for this question; please let me know if I should move it elsewhere]

I program all my drums and use BFD sounds. So I always start a session by selecting a tempo and going into grid mode (I use ProTools by the way; not sure if it was the best choice for what I'm doing, but I'm basically committed to it now). I also love grids because I'm addicted to playing with arrangement possibilities and moving parts or whole sections around.

However, I'm constantly finding that my songs sound like I want in parts but sound rushed in others. When I try to sing lead vocals, there are often places where I want to draw certain syllables out etc., but the virtual band just plays on...

I try to program in tempo changes, but it's hard to get what I want, and time-consuming. I've tried to lay down the tempo sans grid by playing minimal drums on a keyboard while singing at what I feel is a natural (shifting) tempo in order to provide reference times for the beats. However, (1) it is hard to get that to work naturally (since I wouldn't normally play the drums while singing---or at all); (2) having done that, I wan't my grid back---not sure how to get that (perhaps this is a ProTools tech question...); and (3) when I make inevitable timing errors (just routine dumb-assitudes, independent of the tempo changes), there's no grid to snap to, so I have to try to laboriously shift things around by hand.

So anyone know an established best practice for reconciling fluidity of tempo with grid-based midi programming?

(As some background, I can tell you that I haven't played simultaneously with other human musicians in like 15 years---a reaction, probably an overreaction, to lame experiences in bands long ago---and so I guess I'm used to just being able to time things however I want on the fly. Which is not necessarily a good thing---when I want to keep a constant tempo, I don't even come close. I think that sometimes the right answer to my question will be: suck it up and deal with a little more rigidity of tempo than you're used to. But I want to at least try some songs with variable tempos set by me and see how they sound.)

Thanks,
MM

[brandondrury]

I guess I'm used to just being able to time things however I want on the fly. Which is not necessarily a good thing

I'm curious if these temporary speedups / slowdowns you are referring to would sound good to me.

In my experience, most songs sound better when they are a single tempo. This is my view anyway. If a riff has to be sped up to sound cool in the song, I usually think that riff is the wrong choice for the song. With that said, natural and GRADUAL speedups and slowdowns can certainly add life to a song. Hoewver, random abrupt tempo changes are the fastest groove killers in the world to me.

I recorded a band that created a click track that had tons of tempo changes. The drummer had hell playing to them because switching tempos abruptly was counterintuitive.

So I'd take a hard look at your need for tempo fluxuations and make sure that they are absolutley necessary. If they are, you'll have your work cut out for you, but you'll think of something.

I know Cubase has features to analyze a track and then build a tempo map around that.
I'm not sure about Pro Tools.

Brandon

[mukkemacker]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I'm curious if these temporary speedups / slowdowns you are referring to would sound good to me.
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I'd take a hard look at your need for tempo fluxuations and make sure that they are absolutley necessary.

I'm also curious if they would sound good to me... so I want to try to record at least a couple examples that way. I can't really think of any other way to determine if they're "necessary" than to find I hate the song when they're missing and like it otherwise. My internal tempo is way too unreliable for me to figure this out in my imagination alone.

Originally Posted by brandondrury

With that said, natural and GRADUAL speedups and slowdowns can certainly add life to a song. Hoewver, random abrupt tempo changes are the fastest groove killers in the world to me.

I should have made that clearer: I'm mostly talking about fairly gradual tempo changes. However, I also feel drawn to some fairly abrupt ones at junction points in the song, e.g. 2nd last bar of verse suddenly slow down, then there's a bar of silence, and then the chorus comes in a bit faster. I think this is just what people call "rallentando" in scores: it strikes me as ubiquitous in certain styles like romantic orchestral music or big band jazz, i.e. where there's a conductor who can keep everyone together despite the change.

(Maybe I should just make a video of myself conducting the song and sync to it...)

Originally Posted by brandondrury

I know Cubase has features to analyze a track and then build a tempo map around that. I'm not sure about Pro Tools.

I don't know of such a thing, but that gives me an avenue to look down, thanks.

So, do I take it most people's practice is a dichotomous one: either record live performances without grid and click, or record to a grid, in which case you use a fixed tempo, and thus rallentandos, accelererandos, and other Italian words are not on the menu?

Ta,
MM

[richiebee]

You can change the tempo within ProTools... Its been a long time since I had to do it, but I'm pretty certain it can do nice smooth ramps in tempo.

If you use a tempo map like this, all your MIDI stuff will stay on the grid it was originally written on. The tricky thing is the audio (vocals and anything else you don't use MIDI for). Although you can timestretch audio, it should be a last resort. Its better to commit to your tempo changes before you record the audio.

[mukkemacker]

Originally Posted by richiebee

You can change the tempo within ProTools... Its been a long time since I had to do it, but I'm pretty certain it can do nice smooth ramps in tempo.

Yeah, that's not hard, and ProTools has several options (e.g. linear vs. nonlinear ac/decelerations). The hard part is knowing exactly what tempo changes when will reproduce the effect I hear in my head or in my unaccompanied performance. The best I can seem to get is by recording my loosey-goosey-tempo audio track all alone the way I want it and then trying to fiddle with the tempo changes in ProTools till the grid lines up with what I've recorded. But that's very time consuming and difficult.

Originally Posted by richiebee

Its better to commit to your tempo changes before you record the audio.

Oh absolutely, I had no intention of trying to mess around with the tempo of recorded audio.

[richiebee]

Okay, I understand your problem now.

I think I'd record a tap (MIDI if you can freeze MIDI timing in ProTools, or audio if not) so you can figure out what the timing should be. Then line up the tempomap to your tap. Could be manual... might be an automatic way to do it. What's important is that your tap doesn't change as a result of the changes in tempo. You want to change your tempo to your map, not your map to the tempo.

[brandondrury]

I can't really think of any other way to determine if they're "necessary" than to find I hate the song when they're missing and like it otherwise.

That's a pretty damn good gauge in my opinion.

If you use a tempo map like this, all your MIDI stuff will stay on the grid it was originally written on. The tricky thing is the audio (vocals and anything else you don't use MIDI for). Although you can timestretch audio, it should be a last resort. Its better to commit to your tempo changes before you record the audio.

This is assuming you recorded the audio to the fixed tempo and then tried to adjust it later. You could always just track the audio to the drastic tempo changes.

The best I can seem to get is by recording my loosey-goosey-tempo audio track all alone the way I want it and then trying to fiddle with the tempo changes in ProTools till the grid lines up with what I've recorded. But that's very time consuming and difficult.

That's the only way I can think of to achieve this.

The last option is to ditch the grid altogether. It sounds like it's holding you back.

Brandon

[Whammo]

You might also be stuck in straight 4/4 time. Lots of songs have 3/4 or 2/4 "tags" that finish a phrase or section of music.
A brief change of meter might be just what you are looking for.

[mukkemacker]

Originally Posted by brandondrury

The last option is to ditch the grid altogether. It sounds like it's holding you back.

I'm too afraid... not ready yet... [creeps backwards from edge of diving board]

I'm going to play with Beat Detective when I get a chance. Comes with ProTools 7 and looks like it might be what I'm after. Will report back.

Originally Posted by Whammo

You might also be stuck in straight 4/4 time. Lots of songs have 3/4 or 2/4 "tags" that finish a phrase or section of music.

No no, I'm talking about tempo issues. At the risk of incorrectly sounding as if I'm bitchily taking offense: I know when the time signature changes in my own songs.

Ta,
MM

[Whammo]

Originally Posted by mukkemacker

No no, I'm talking about tempo issues. At the risk of incorrectly sounding as if I'm bitchily taking offense: I know when the time signature changes in my own songs.

Ta,
MM

Right on!

Rock on, dude!