Problem using a click with a midi sequencer

[on the run]

Hey guys, i play drums in an electronic pop band, and have recently decided to start playing to a click track live (previously i just had the synths blaring through my monitors and had to sit to all manner of crazy sequenced and arp stuff).

We are using a korg electribe MX as the 'brains' of the operation. All the tracks are sequenced on it and it sends out midi signals to a sampler, korg synth, polyevolver and also to my drum brain (a yamaha dtextreme IIs). My drum thing's sequencer is hence controlled by the electribe and i get the click from the drum brain which i listen to with a pair of headphones.

The problem is, however, that I feel like the click track I get in my headphoens seems to be sitting a microscopic amount of time *ahead* of the sequenced synths/sampler which I can hear through the PA.

Having played to metronomes and stuff for years, and having a decent grasp on rhythm i'm used to the concept of playing 'behind the beat'. And i find that, in order to sit with the sequenced synths and samples, i have to sit a few ms's behind the click that I get in my ear.

So i wonder what would be causing this? Is it possible that the synths are causing a tiny delay in when they recieve the signal and when they play? I read somewhere different synths respond to midi faster then others. Is it possible we have a bunch of 'slow' synths and my drum unit is 'fast', hence it feels like it's a tiny bit ahead of everything else? I read a possible way to solve this was to buy a 'midi delay' device to delay the faster units so they sync with the slower ones.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[brandondrury]

Well, this is an interesting question!

The problem is, however, that I feel like the click track I get in my headphoens seems to be sitting a microscopic amount of time *ahead* of the sequenced synths/sampler which I can hear through the PA.

How far away is the PA? Sound travels at 1ft / second (roughly) and if a PA speaker is 15ft away, it will sound 15ms behind when compared to the click you are hearing which was sent electronically (travels the speed of light...I think).

To test this I'd attempt to send the audio signal to your headphone mix (or send your click track through the PA) to see if they line up that way. It's possible we are just dealing with a speed of sound issue.

It's possible that you have some strange MIDI latency thing going on, but I'd rule out the obvious before opening that can of worms.

Brandon

[on the run]

Thanks for the reply brandon, i never really thought of that, in our rehearsal studio i'm sitting about 10 ft from the speakers due to the way they're set up. I might try setting up one of the speakers right next to me next rehearsal to see if it sounds better.

[C. Hanson]

Sound actually travels about 1125 feet per second, depending on the conditions. You'd need to be a fair distance from a speaker for that to interfere with your perception of timing. In a band, you're likely to be, what, three to five feet from your monitors? As Brandon noted, it's possibly a latency problem.

[on the run]

Yeah I think the "1 ft a second" was a typo on brandon's behalf as he then said 15 feet = 15 milleseconds, so yeah 1.125 feet a ms like you say . We rehearse in a reasonably large space and the speakers are set up in such a way at the moment that they are on the far wall facing me and i'm on the other side of the room, so about 12-15 feet from them.

At rehearsal tonight I'm going to try moving one of the speakers right next to me and see if it is better. I mean, the lag I was noticing was minuscule, and the other guys didn't really feel it, so it would make sense for it to be only a tiny amount like 10-15 ms. But I think just having a background in drums meant i'm more perceptible to the feeling of something feeling 'behind' or 'ahead' of the beat and the click was definitely sitting ahead of the synths, (at least from where i was sitting).

[C. Hanson]

Sure--I thought he erred on the slow side
Let us know if proximity to the speakers improves the problem at all. I just can't see how 15m/s could cause this problem. Hell, stand 50 feet from your speakers, and your delay is still only about 1/20th of a second. Has to be the gear, I think.

[on the run]

i will let you know, the delay is a very tiny one though so it may only be the 15ms. Like i said my bandmates couldn't really tell, it was more to do with the 'feel' then any sort of audible delay.

For example if you have a drum track in cubase and the click going. Then select the drum track and move it 15 ms to the right, so it's 'behind' the beat and then listen to it with the click, you will be able to feel the click sitting a little ahead. barely noticeable but definitely percievable.

[runawaymartin]

Hi 'On The Run' . . I reckon you were pretty much on the nail in your first post in that you thought that maybe there IS a discrepancy between your drum CLICK and other instruments. If the drum brain is producing the click then you can pretty much bet that it will be right on the beat whereas any other sounds are liable to have a latency due to the processing that goes on within them.
On a slightly different tack . . I'm using a CLICK track on stage which is running alongside multi-track audio as opposed to MIDI. Very early on I realised that I coudn't use a MIDI generated CLICK because it was fractionally ahead of the other tracks, so I now use an audio CLICK (actually a combination of a cowbell and a side-stick - produced in Cubase). This also has other advantages in as much as you can put other audio 'cues' within the CLICK track . . e.g. guide chords for a cappella peices etc...
BTW . . the software I'm using is called SCS . . a great program for running audio, MIDI, video, jpg etc . . . Check it out on my website @ Live Show Control - Home Page . . . .