MicHELP?

[samccart]

Howdy all, no this is not a question about a new sandwhich at mc'ds. Im a newbie here and have some questions from my fellow drummers and any others that may give revelation. Recently started drumming for a new band and have been asked to do some vocal work (both lead and backups) and undecided as to vocal mic use (type and brand). I have tried traditional boom mic stands with cartoid directional mic. Very uncomfortable with my playing style (I like to bang actively!). Wireless headset was recommended (Samson QV wireless with beltpack and receiver). When I went to check it out I was told this wasnt ideal and I would have problems without compression going from lead to backup vocals from song to song. This quy recommended a Shure 57 or 58 with a heavy boom stand. I assume all of these are decent quality but I dont want to restrict my motion by having my head glued to a mic stand. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Next, the question of drum mics has come up. Again I wont pretend to know anything but I have researched a little and see I have mic kits available Shure, Samson and others make "drum mic kits" which include overheads, bass, tom, and snare specific mics. I am also intrigued with ddrum triggers (the good ones). Anyone have any knowledge, suggestions, criticisms? We play heavy Christian rock covers (for now) but plan on some diversity dependent upon venue. Thanks in advance all, and keep rocking!

[thesilentdrummer]

Hmm. I am also in a situation where I might need to do vocals for a band as well as drum. It is very customary to throw an SM 57 or 58 on a boom in front the drummer, but that idea doesn't appeal to me too much. then I though about other methods, which brought me to yhis fancy little mic. We use these mics (or slightly better ones, not sure) in music theater applications where you need clean sound and wireless mobility. The way that we use them is that we clip the body pack to a belt or something and run the mic cord up the back and over one of the ears. then, we tape the cord in place so that the actual mic is on the cheek bone (how this mic is supposed to pick up vibrations). Very powerful, but it isn't a cardioid mic, so it doesn't control bleed like 57 or 58 would. The with a good sound check setup the bleed is controllable, and in a live situation, bleed isn't as big a deal. The Major downside about this mic is the $$$$.

[samccart]

I checked that mic out. It appears to be similiar to the Samson Qv that was recommended to me but a LOT more expensive (like double!). I was all set to pick up the Samson but they didnt have any in stock. I went back 2 weeks later and a different salesman told me that the Samson would be great if I was singing lead however without compression it would cause problems switching to backing vocals. He wanted me to buy a Shure 58 and a "heavy duty" boom stand. Ive tried playing that way before and its just not comfortable to hold my head that still on a mic with my aggresive playing style. So I guess for now I am still leaning towards the wireless idea and hopefully we can deal with the compression on backing vocals between songs?

[brandondrury]

I dont want to restrict my motion by having my head glued to a mic stand.

It's not going to happen unless you playing jazz with brushes. If you are a rock drummer (who should be DRILLING the drums)., the bleed will be excessive

I've ran quite a few live sound gigs for a buddy's rock band. They have a 16,000 watt PA and I take the gig pretty seriously. I HAVE to gate his mic for sure. Some bleed still gets in there, but I don't necessarily hate it.

The compression thing gets really tricky. I typically don't "compress" vocals like I would in recording. I "limit" them. There is quite a difference in the approach. It's very common for me to knock off 6-12dB from a vocal when I'm mixing a record. Live, this is IMPOSSIBLE if you require any kind of gain before feedback. (We ALWAYS push the gain before feedback threshold).

However, I do like to set a limiter to kick in hard at a certain point. The logic here is to let the quite stuff through, but nuke the loud stuff. I do this only after I've maxed out gain before feedback on the mic. I do not use any makeup gain on the limiter.

If you don't have a dedicated sound man, you are done anyway...in my opinion. When I run sound, I'm CONSTANTLY riding the levels of vocals and guitars (I usually leave drums fixed) to do the song justice. In my opinion, it's a tragic compromise to attempt live sound with the same gain structure on every song.

This quy recommended a Shure 57

BRILLIANT! I'm guessing he's never sang any words like "power", "people", "potency", "pilgrimage"...(can you see a pattern here?) into a 57. The 57 will catapault your P's right into your chest. People have blown speakers using 57s on vocals in a live situation. Actually, I made that up, but I wouldn't doubt it.

57s and 58s are (more or less) the same. The 58s have the built in pop filter / windscreen and therefor have a different tone (which is usually a little more ideal for live sound anyway). I do use 57s on vocals in the studio from time to time, but I always use a pop filter and a few inches of distance (that I've never seen live).

with a good sound check setup the bleed is controllable, and in a live situation, bleed isn't as big a deal.

This is true to a certain extent. If the thing is omni, I've got a feeling it would be useless for the kind of work I'm doing. Luckily, the drummer uses in ear monitors on my gig, but if you are using a wedge, I've got a bad feeling about that little mic. I could be wrong.

So I guess for now I am still leaning towards the wireless idea and hopefully we can deal with the compression on backing vocals between songs?

Give it a shot and see what happens. See if the store will let you return the mic if you hate it.

A lot of this level stuff is up to you and your voice. There are some lead vocals that are quite and there are background vocals that are LOUD. It just really depends on what you are doing.

Most drummers do have to compromise when singing. While not ideal, it's the way it is. You should only have to compromise on your drum power when you are singing lead, though.

Try your options and see what happens.

Next, the question of drum mics has come up. Again I wont pretend to know anything but I have researched a little and see I have mic kits available Shure, Samson and others make "drum mic kits" which include overheads, bass, tom, and snare specific mics

What is the primary purpose of the mics? Live or studio?

I have opinions about all of these, but I'll wait.

[lumpy]

Here is the opinion from the resident tightwad singing drummer. Go wireless - I am currently using a Nady UHF-16. Good cheap dependable wireless vocal mic. Musician's Friend has a Channel Two on sale for $100. That cord being out of the way helps more than you would think.

Next, get a weighted boom stand, a short straight boom or gooseneck for a mic stand, a mic clip (standard Shure-type clips won't work with wireless handhelds), and a 10 - 20 pound weight from somebody's weight bench. How you "get" these items are your buisness.

Take the weight off the bottom of the threaded mic stand, slide the 10 - 20 lb weight on the end of the mic stand and thread the original weight back on. Now your mic stand has some ass. Take the Shure-type mic clip off the boom stand and do with it what you will. Take the short boom or gooseneck and put it where you took the mic clip off. Put you mic clip on the end of the short boom or gooseneck.

This modified stand should give you plenty of room to move around and should stay out of the way for the most part. Nothing is perfect.

As far as drum mics go, I like the Nady DM-70, DM-80, and DM-90 for toms and bass drum, and a good old Shure SM57 for my snare. Coarse I play a 4-piece.

Honestly, I've owned Nady stuff for years and have had nothing but good luck with it. I'm not saying everything else is shit, but for the price it is fine. That DM-90 handles my old Ludwig 24" tuned fat and low.

Lump

[brandondrury]

Take the weight off the bottom of the threaded mic stand, slide the 10 - 20 lb weight on the end of the mic stand and thread the original weight back on.

I should have patented this back when I had a chance!

Be careful with the 15 pounders. I've screwed up a few mic stands by carrying the stand with a heavy weight that eventually can pull the bottom right off the stand. Most mics stands are threaded, but thingy that is threaded is often just a sleave that is welded in.

So, I recommend the 10lbs weight myself.

Brandon

[lumpy]

"I should have patented this back when I had a chance!"

My first mic stand was a mic hanging from it's cord from the basement ceiling. Then I moved up to a broom stick and a 20 lb weight.

Musician's have been using bench weights for various applications for decades. God knows we wouldn't use them to actually exercise. I've read that Handsome Dick Manatoba smashed Wayne (Jayne) County's head in with a bench weighted mic stand when he/she tried to join the Dictator's onstage at CBGB's back in the mid 70's.

Lump

[samccart]

You guys are right on!

The cord does seem to be a problem but also the angle of approach with the boom stand makes it obnoxious to really play with freedom. Perhaps I should come in from higher up and drop down closer to my face. I really dont like anything in front of my eyes when Im playing it seems really uncomfortable to me.

The weight on the stand info is excellent! Someone else has recommended this to me also. Its a shame that the way alot of these stands are made so cheesy. Dont these manufactures understand that musicians (at my level anyway) just simply dont have money to throw away on junk?

Im still researching mics and appreciate the advice guys! Time is getting short however, our first gig has been penciled in for the end of June!

[brandondrury]

Speaking of mics, I do want to point out something.

I mentioned that I often run sound for a band with a 16,000 watt PA. The band often wants the sound to be as loud as possible (much to my demise). With that said, it's rare that I use much snare mic at all. The drummer has been through the major label bootcamp (but no signing) and crushes his snare like any hard rock drummer should. So, with that said, excessive micing is not necessary.

So, unless you are playing stadiums or whatever you probably won't need THAT much of your drums coming from the PA. Keep this mind.

As for toms and stuff, the Audix mics with the clips seam pretty solid. Clips are not great in the studio (I prefer stands) but on stage, I'll take the clips every time.

For studio use, I never recommend these drum kits. I'd just buy 4 used 57s for $250 and be done with it.

Brandon

[samccart]

Great info!

Phewww, all these years Ive been crushing my snare to find out Im doing it right after all!

Yeah at this point I think the mics for the drums will be for recording puposes especially since I dont see any stadium venues on the calender, yet

57's for each drum? (just clarifying) I know they are great mics!

Im leaning towards making mic stands at this point (lots of JUNK out there for big money!) since 2 of the guys are machinists/fabricators when they take time off from rocking!

Thanks again all!
~scott~