The Song Length Thread

[brandondrury]

This thread is a discussion of song length and how it correlates to the music business, album sales, radio play, and all that crap.

On another thread, Charlie_M was discussing how he loved Song Remains the Same.

To my mind, a perfect example is Song Remains the Same.... For all the sloppiness and errors on that record, it's brilliant.... I doubt that it would sell worth beans if it were released today...... Which makes it no less great, but still something to keep in mind...... The reason I think it wouldn't sell though is not that it was sloppy in some places, the reason is that the songs that made that album great tended to be long. I think an 11 minute song has been the kiss of death for a long time (which by the way is why Tool's 3rd eye stood out in my mind for its time...)

We all know that radio has pushed for the 3 minute song because it lets them play more commercials, make more money, bla bla bla. At least this is what we are told. If radio is so hardcore, why is Tool allowed to have an 8 minute song on the radio? It just seems the radio stations would say "We have X time limit on a song".

I wonder if the radio stations have really placed limits on a song or if the average songwriter just assumes that the radio has placed limits on the songs and therefore they place limits on themselves.

Brandon

[Charlie_M]

Good topic.

Speaking only for myself, when it comes to writing a song, what I am trying to convey is a certain emotional idea or feeling. When the point is made or the feeling conveyed, the song is through. In every case (all 2 of them! ) where I’ve actually finished a song, I had extra musical ideas I ended up not using. I didn’t hold back because I’m afraid of the radio or sales or whatever… I just didn’t have much more to say and was afraid of becoming musically verbose (I have no such fear of thread verbosity!).

I want to also clarify that when I said “song” in that other thread, maybe there was a better word choice. To me there is a difference between a studio version of a song and the live version. The guys I like to listen to live are what I consider to be great guitarists, and when you’re that good, the thing that comes naturally in a live setting is to improv, jam, riff, blaze on extemporaneously, etc… I think Dazed and Confused is mostly that. To me that wouldn’t really make it an 11 minute song, but more of a 3 minute song with a long jam in the middle. As a listener I love that stuff. When I hear the live version of Rock Bottom (UFO, strangers in the night LP) I really feel something. If my guitar playing was to that level and I was in a band playing live gigs I’d be doing that for sure, but it’s not an 11 minute song I think.

Tool is different. When they do a long song it is in fact a long song, not a 3 minute song with a long jam in the middle. Third Eye is a good example… and while I don’t remember the duration of Lateralus, I’m pretty sure it was on the long side and that’s a real song all the way through. What I mean by that is that the emotional impact is incrementally revealed to the listener all the way through to the end without a lot of dead spots along the way. I’ve now stopped listening to Maynard ever since the Perfect Circle CD that was 100% covers… have no idea what he’s up to today but the Lateralus CD in my opinion is kind of a high water mark for hard-rock / prog-rock song writing.

Charlie

[richiebee]

In terms of radio play, a three minute song will fit into more programming spaces than an 8 minute song, therefore, regardless of whether a station has a policy on time limits, you will get more repeat plays on a shorter song... to a point.


R.

[DT Chris]

I'll just keep writing and doing what I'm doing. Most of the 'commercial' type songs end up being around 3:30 anyway, but through no censoring of mine.

My Thanksgiving tune, however, may run up to 5 minutes, but's that's just because the way it turned out.

Can the attention span of a modern listener go past 3 minutes? Now that is the question...

Still Rush has some pretty long songs, and there's no shortage of Rush airtime on the radio.

[jdaug]

having never sold a song or an album, im not exactly a commercial expert, but it seems like the average listener who has never heard your song before does not have the patience to listen to an 11, 8 , or even 6 minute song. radio stations playing new (popular) music know that also, and dont want to lose listeners on a long song that nobody knows. commercial musicians write music to get airtime, thus they make shit that radio stations wont be afraid to play.

i put a 9 minute song on garageband and it got bad reviews. of course maybe the song just sucked, but most of the comments suggested shortening the song.

[Smidgelton]

Originally Posted by Charlie_M

Tool is different. When they do a long song it is in fact a long song, not a 3 minute song with a long jam in the middle. Third Eye is a good example… and while I don’t remember the duration of Lateralus, I’m pretty sure it was on the long side and that’s a real song all the way through. What I mean by that is that the emotional impact is incrementally revealed to the listener all the way through to the end without a lot of dead spots along the way. I’ve now stopped listening to Maynard ever since the Perfect Circle CD that was 100% covers… have no idea what he’s up to today but the Lateralus CD in my opinion is kind of a high water mark for hard-rock / prog-rock song writing.

Charlie

Lateralus, the song, clocks in around 9 minutes. Lateralus, the album, clocks in at nearly 80 minutes. There is something about Tool... they can write an 8 minute song that feels like a 4 minute song. But then I listen to Animals by Pink Floyd, which is 5 tracks clocking in at 35 minutes, and it feels longer than Lateralus, which is 13 tracks at 80 minutes (more than twice the length). Then there is Ghost Reveries by Opeth which has more than one song at over 11 minutes and, to me, doesn't feel that long.

Okay I think I strayed way off the point of this thread...

[DT Chris]

I don't think there are any rules. As mentioned in a previous post, it has more to do with musician's goals and expectations.

There are many examples of longer than 3 minute songs making a lot of money and are still playing on the radio.

There are no set rules, and shouldn't be. Someone telling me to shorten my song to fit their vision is not right - this is all coming from a "musician-beg-recordcompany" attitude that really shouldn't be happening anymore. The internet is a world-wide market. What doesn't fly in the US or Canada may become big in Europe or Japan...

David Hasselhoff - #1 in Germany for awhile, Neil Diamond Greatest Hits - #1 in Australia for awhile, Alyssa Milano released five albums that have all reached sales of over one million copies in Japan.), Jennifer Love Hewitt, etc.

[brandondrury]

I think it's important to note that using a formula simply doesn't work.

When I sit down to listen to a band's song that I'm about to produce, I am looking for ways to improve it and I guess some could call that using a formula. I do not.

I think there is a huge difference between "let's shorten this bridge because I'm kind of getting bored here" and "let's shorten this song so the McDonald's commercial can play sooner". Thinking about the business is the application of limits. Creativity is supposed to be about the removal of limitatios.

I just don't think you make an album of great music when you are thinking about things like that. When the album is finished, the label can make their best guesses as to which songs would be the best singles or whatever. But they don't have a damn clue either.

I don't think we can rule out the business end of the music making process. I just don't think we can base our decisions around it. I just don't think it works. If focusing on the business end worked, the labels would not be losing money all the time.

Brandon

[Charlie_M]

We are moving all over the place here I think.

I would put my thoughts on the subject this way: If you have an 11 minute piece that moves you and you think it will move other people, then yes of course you have to go with that and let the chips fall where they may.

It seems to be the truth that nobody can say in advance what's going to be a hit anyway so you have to go with what works for you and hope that it connects with others. If it's good, then ... commercial success or not yo should feel good about that.

At the same time, if this 11 minute thing you have is really a 3 minute song with an 8 minute guitar jam (or drum solo or other thing that only speaks to a very narrow group) in the middle of it, you've got to stop and ask yourself whether that's an actual creative odyssey you're taking the listener on where you break some kind of new ground, or if that jam is merely self-indulgence.

As a guitarist I enjoy listening to the self-indulgent jams of other guitarists. I have no interest in writing a thing like that though.

[brandondrury]

jam is merely self-indulgence

If a jam is ONLY self-indulgent, I get nothing out of it. I'm not talking about the intent of the guitarist. I'm talking about the result.

As a guitarist I enjoy listening to the self-indulgent jams of other guitarists.

There is that 2nd most played Ted Nugent song that has that long boring ass solo in the middle. It gets played all the time on classic rock radio, but I couldn't even imagine how it would be fun to PLAY that!

Brandon